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ALICE detects the conversion of lead into gold at the LHC

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Re: ALICE detects the conversion of lead into gold at the LHC

#41

Post by thenobsta »

Nuclear physics wants to move everything towards Iron, right?

Lead to gold could be an economically viable target for a fission. Produce a little bit of energy with a final product of gold. Buy the lead, sell the electrons and gold.

This is way better than alchemy. We get real gold and a black gold alternative. ;)

Re: ALICE detects the conversion of lead into gold at the LHC

#42

Post by omnee »

The relevant part: "The ALICE analysis shows that, during Run 2 of the LHC (2015–2018), about 86 billion gold nuclei were created at the four major experiments. In terms of mass, this corresponds to just 29 picograms (2.9 ×10-11 g)."

Just need to scale it by trillions to make 1 ounce, but transmutation of lead to gold - the dream of many alchemists - is now just a by product of particle accelerators.

Re: ALICE detects the conversion of lead into gold at the LHC

#43

Post by guestbest »

John23832 wrote: post #27

Random question. Historically, why have Lead and Gold been so closely linked? Why did alchemist focus on turning lead into gold (and not start with iron, or a rock like quartz)? Is it just because they're two heavy soft metals?

If one wanted to fool someone into accepting gold painted lead as genuine gold, it is easier than trying to pass off pyrite. Golds much higher melting point is a giveaway, though. I don’t think it was the idea of atomic properties that was attempted to be changed but the selection of certain properties that alchemy was attempting to transmute to lead from gold, such as melting point and color to make a cheaper gold in a lab.

Re: ALICE detects the conversion of lead into gold at the LHC

#44

Post by jrvieira »

marcodiego wrote: post #31
John23832 wrote: post #27

Random question. Historically, why have Lead and Gold been so closely linked? Why did alchemist focus on turning lead into gold (and not start with iron, or a rock like quartz)? Is it just because they're two heavy soft metals?

A friend of mine who was into alchemy, told me it was because the difference was only three protons. I don't if early alchemists knew that or why not consider metals that are less than three protons different from gold.

no, alchemists didn't know about protons

Re: ALICE detects the conversion of lead into gold at the LHC

#46

Post by bad_haircut72 »

John23832 wrote: post #27

Random question. Historically, why have Lead and Gold been so closely linked? Why did alchemist focus on turning lead into gold (and not start with iron, or a rock like quartz)? Is it just because they're two heavy soft metals?

The leading theory at the time was that metals were grown in the earth, starting as base metals and transmuting over time/under certain conditions into the higher metals, eventually ending up at gold, which they thought was the end point because it never tarnished. It was actually not a terrible theory given the information they had, all metals come from the ground after all - the idea of turning lead into gold wasn't some magical thinking, they were trying to reproduce natural conditions in the lab and speed it up, just like we do today in hundreds of other ways today. If someone had succeeded it would have been like doing the double slit experiment of it's day, a complete proof that alchemical theory was right.

Re: ALICE detects the conversion of lead into gold at the LHC

#48

Post by mcphage »

I remember there being an episode of Ancient Aliens (or some similar show) wondering whether the reason Aliens were coming to Earth was for our gold—and then at the end of the entire episode, they spoke to a scientist who said "Yeah, if you want some Gold, they can just make it in a particle accelerator". I thought it was pretty great—an entire show about something outlandish, and then just blow the entire idea up at the very end.

Re: ALICE detects the conversion of lead into gold at the LHC

#50

Post by tanseydavid »

krapp wrote: post #39
John23832 wrote: post #27

Random question. Historically, why have Lead and Gold been so closely linked? Why did alchemist focus on turning lead into gold (and not start with iron, or a rock like quartz)? Is it just because they're two heavy soft metals?

One has to remember that alchemy was as much a religious and spiritual pursuit as anything resembling proto-science, and understand that occultists were working from a worldview which was nominatively deterministic - meaning the names and properties of things in the natural world held inherent power and reflected a higher, divine nature ("as above, so below") The transmutation of metals in alchemy is a metaphor for t…

Thank you for this. Here's a pull quote from the linked article:

    Broadly speaking, alchemical writings are not just concerned with the 
    manipulation of physical matter; rather, alchemy can be viewed as a 
    philosophy that synthesizes chemistry and spirituality. A common overarching 
    idea is that transmuting materials is directly analogous to the purification 
    of the soul - alchemists were, in general, trying to advance *spiritual* 
    enlightenment as well as *intellectual* enlightenment. It's important to 
    understand this mindset in order to grasp what they were trying to achieve 
    with metallurgy.
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