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ALICE detects the conversion of lead into gold at the LHC

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Re: ALICE detects the conversion of lead into gold at the LHC

#31

Random question. Historically, why have Lead and Gold been so closely linked? Why did alchemist focus on turning lead into gold (and not start with iron, or a rock like quartz)? Is it just because they're two heavy soft metals?

A friend of mine who was into alchemy, told me it was because the difference was only three protons. I don't if early alchemists knew that or why not consider metals that are less than three protons different from gold.

Re: ALICE detects the conversion of lead into gold at the LHC

#32

Random question. Historically, why have Lead and Gold been so closely linked? Why did alchemist focus on turning lead into gold (and not start with iron, or a rock like quartz)? Is it just because they're two heavy soft metals?

Most likely because lead was used for faking coins. Lead covered in a thin layer of gold. You know that coin biting move from movies about middle ages? It was to check if you’re dealing with gold or lead. So lead was the impersonation of the fake. Turning a fake into the real deal.

Re: ALICE detects the conversion of lead into gold at the LHC

#33
I just did a funny exercise (details are not interesting) to estimate how long would LHC and Alice need (assuming perfect conditions and ignoring any limitations) to get enough gold to fund FCC (15B CHF assuming today's gold price in CHF) on their own. And it would take about 185 billion years of continuous run. A reminder that the universe is about 14 billion years (ignoring the hubble tension for our purpose here)

Re: ALICE detects the conversion of lead into gold at the LHC

#35

Are there economists here? If you could make (non radioactive) gold AND keep it secret, how much (oz?) could you produce a year without substantially affect gold's market value? Asking for a friend.

The world gold production is about 3500 tons/year. Order of magnitude, you should be able to add about 10% to that without causing the price to move any more than its normal yearly fluctuations.

[0] https://www.lbma.org.uk/alchemist/issue-100/gold-production-...

Re: ALICE detects the conversion of lead into gold at the LHC

#36

Are there economists here? If you could make (non radioactive) gold AND keep it secret, how much (oz?) could you produce a year without substantially affect gold's market value? Asking for a friend.

I’m honestly not sure that the market is looking at supply at all at this point and is focused mainly on gold as a hedge against assets that are part of structured economies (treasuries, the dollar, etc)

I would hypothesize that if you doubled the gold supply in the world you might only see a 1/3 decrease in price because of these dynamics - but I’m not an expert in that market.

Re: ALICE detects the conversion of lead into gold at the LHC

#37

Something from l Ron Hubbard’s mission earth scifi series has stuck with me for years. Basically in preparation for an undercover mission to earth the protagonist (who’s more of an antagonist really) goes to a place in his city full of fusion plants and orders a bunch of gold to bring with him. It ends up being so much gold that it would crash the earth’s economies… But what stuck with me was this idea of ordering el…

It was 500 tons. And it traded for like half a billion in the 80s dollars. Nice chunk but nothing earth shattering. And he lost all of it.

Re: ALICE detects the conversion of lead into gold at the LHC

#38

It does make you wonder whether the physicists obsession [1] of turning base metals into gold - is the real reason for the LHC :-) [1] Newton famously spent around 30 years of his life on alchemy ( the other stuff were really side projects )

If you’re worried about your funding getting cut, transmuting lead into gold is one way to get around that.

CERN's budget has not really had a budget cut or a need to justify its budget. Nor does it have extra money flowing, mind you. It's also really cheap for member states all things considered, I think as a french citizen I "pay" 5 euros per year or something like that for CERN ?

Re: ALICE detects the conversion of lead into gold at the LHC

#39

Random question. Historically, why have Lead and Gold been so closely linked? Why did alchemist focus on turning lead into gold (and not start with iron, or a rock like quartz)? Is it just because they're two heavy soft metals?

One has to remember that alchemy was as much a religious and spiritual pursuit as anything resembling proto-science, and understand that occultists were working from a worldview which was nominatively deterministic - meaning the names and properties of things in the natural world held inherent power and reflected a higher, divine nature ("as above, so below")

The transmutation of metals in alchemy is a metaphor for the transmutation of the soul, from its base and sinful nature ("lead") to divinity ("gold".) The means of purifying one was the means of purifying the other, and the "philosopher's stone" alchemists often sought to achieve this was credited for doing both.

Also... it was often an easy grift to get room and board (and money) from wealthy patrons.

Here is a good /r/AskHistorians thread about this[0].

https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/114vo4m/alch...

Re: ALICE detects the conversion of lead into gold at the LHC

#40
post #29

Random question. Historically, why have Lead and Gold been so closely linked? Why did alchemist focus on turning lead into gold (and not start with iron, or a rock like quartz)? Is it just because they're two heavy soft metals?

Most likely. "If we could just make this shinier... we could be rich" Alchemists probably weren't thinking about the gold economy, in that if they figured out how to turn something common like lead into something more rare like gold, that gold would no longer be rare, and they wouldn't be rich for very long.

The first ones to discover this would have been rich though. I doubt they cared what would happen to anybody else in the long run.
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