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FTC rule on unfair or deceptive fees to take effect on May 12

ftc.gov

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Re: FTC rule on unfair or deceptive fees to take effect on May 12

#61

Post by autobodie »

jfengel wrote: post #54
breadwinner wrote: post #50

Why limit this to live-event and lodging industries? Why not all the fees tacked on by cell carriers? For example, AT&T charges a fee to "recover certain aggregate expenses AT&T incurs, including, but not limited to, charges AT&T or its agents pay to interconnect with other carriers to deliver calls from AT&T customers to their customers and charges associated with cell site rents and maintenance" [1] [1] https://www…

Regulations like this are written in consultation with the industries being regulated. There is a ton of wrangling and nailing down details. It's usually hundreds of pages long and specific to the industry. So they can't just write a single thing that rights all wrongs. And their staffing is extremely limited.

>they can't just write a single thing that writes all wrongs.

Found the attorney! Nobody asked for "a single thing that writes all wrongs."

Simple, broad laws can absolutely be written, they are especially easy to write, and they are usually the best laws for decent average citizens, but decent average citizens are not who laws are written for in the United States. Most people already know this.

Re: FTC rule on unfair or deceptive fees to take effect on May 12

#62

Post by breadwinner »

ezfe wrote: post #55
breadwinner wrote: post #50

Why limit this to live-event and lodging industries? Why not all the fees tacked on by cell carriers? For example, AT&T charges a fee to "recover certain aggregate expenses AT&T incurs, including, but not limited to, charges AT&T or its agents pay to interconnect with other carriers to deliver calls from AT&T customers to their customers and charges associated with cell site rents and maintenance" [1] [1] https://www…

Are those fees not included in the advertised price? The issue is not fees themselves but fees that are added on at the checkout screen.

Nope. This is an extra fee that they add to recover the cost of making your phone calls work. This fee is not included in the advertised price.

Re: FTC rule on unfair or deceptive fees to take effect on May 12

#63

Post by tomrod »

gruez wrote: post #41
da_chicken wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would suggest that a pre-recorded performance is inherently more fungible. If movie theater A is going to charge you a $20 fee when you get to the theater, you can just go to theater B later and see the same show. If you're trying to see the single Chicago date of Tropical Fu Dogs' Coconut Cream tour, well, you either pay the fee or you don't ever see that show.

>If you're trying to see the single Chicago date of Tropical Fu Dogs' Coconut Cream tour, well, you either pay the fee or you don't ever see that show. Isn't that an argument for stronger disclosure laws for pre-recorded performances? If there's a monopoly, deceptive pricing wouldn't do much because the monopolist is still your only choice. but if it's a competitive marketplace, deceptive pricing might actually lead…

There is also an element of repeated games and reputation of the provider.

Re: FTC rule on unfair or deceptive fees to take effect on May 12

#64

Post by brewdad »

ezfe wrote: post #55
breadwinner wrote: post #50

Why limit this to live-event and lodging industries? Why not all the fees tacked on by cell carriers? For example, AT&T charges a fee to "recover certain aggregate expenses AT&T incurs, including, but not limited to, charges AT&T or its agents pay to interconnect with other carriers to deliver calls from AT&T customers to their customers and charges associated with cell site rents and maintenance" [1] [1] https://www…

Are those fees not included in the advertised price? The issue is not fees themselves but fees that are added on at the checkout screen.

Typically the will be advertised as BIG MONTHLY PRICE $50/mo

Then an asterisk and tiny, tiny print somewhere below stating "plus taxes and fees"

So it depends on how you define "fees not included in the advertised price" but the last time I had a postpaid plan, I couldn't even know how much those added taxes and fees were until my first bill arrived.

Re: FTC rule on unfair or deceptive fees to take effect on May 12

#65

Post by throwawaymaths »

brewdad wrote: post #64
ezfe wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are those fees not included in the advertised price? The issue is not fees themselves but fees that are added on at the checkout screen.

Typically the will be advertised as BIG MONTHLY PRICE $50/mo Then an asterisk and tiny, tiny print somewhere below stating "plus taxes and fees" So it depends on how you define "fees not included in the advertised price" but the last time I had a postpaid plan, I couldn't even know how much those added taxes and fees were until my first bill arrived.

it's really never as bad as it is for hotels. I once booked a hotel stay in san francisco which looked like $300 on the website, but after I was done I was charged an extra $200 for various fees which was mostly a san francisco hotel tax.. I never saw it until I checked out. It doesn't even matter if every hotel in SF gets that tax, I don't care, I want to see it before I book the place. Ideally at the "price map" screen.

As an aside, I don't know why AirBnB can't get their shit together and push all the fees to the map. My guess is that most of those fees are not per night? Well make the front matter say "$120/night + fees" and when you select your dates you know what the total cost is.

Re: FTC rule on unfair or deceptive fees to take effect on May 12

#66

Post by [deleted] »

da_chicken wrote: post #15
diggan wrote: post #5

> Live-event tickets include those for concerts, sporting events, music, theater, and other live performances that audiences watch as they occur, but not pre-recorded audio or visual performances. What could be the reason pre-recorded audio/visual performances are excluded? Shouldn't this just be for everything? Why would some types of tickets be required to be truthful about fees and not allowed to lie about the tot…

I would suggest that a pre-recorded performance is inherently more fungible. If movie theater A is going to charge you a $20 fee when you get to the theater, you can just go to theater B later and see the same show. If you're trying to see the single Chicago date of Tropical Fu Dogs' Coconut Cream tour, well, you either pay the fee or you don't ever see that show.

[deleted]

Re: FTC rule on unfair or deceptive fees to take effect on May 12

#67

Post by kube-system »

timewizard wrote: post #11
9283409232 wrote: post #8

Okay so I'm not crazy because I swore this was a Biden era policy.

The FTC is an independent regulatory agency. The president has almost no powers and little oversight when it comes to these agencies. More appropriately this is a Lina Khan era policy. She had a rocky start but her focus and conviction was unparalleled by any previous iteration of the agency. So much so that she enjoyed more bipartisan congressional support and approval than most staffers in recent memory.

I hope things continue to be that way, but have you read this?

https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/02/ensu...

Re: FTC rule on unfair or deceptive fees to take effect on May 12

#68

Post by throwawaymaths »

diggan wrote: post #5

> Live-event tickets include those for concerts, sporting events, music, theater, and other live performances that audiences watch as they occur, but not pre-recorded audio or visual performances. What could be the reason pre-recorded audio/visual performances are excluded? Shouldn't this just be for everything? Why would some types of tickets be required to be truthful about fees and not allowed to lie about the tot…

how often do you get extra fees on a pre-recorded performance? Aside from sales tax, my guess would be, for me it's been zero times.

Re: FTC rule on unfair or deceptive fees to take effect on May 12

#69

Post by LudwigNagasena »

GuB-42 wrote: post #47
diggan wrote: post #5

> Live-event tickets include those for concerts, sporting events, music, theater, and other live performances that audiences watch as they occur, but not pre-recorded audio or visual performances. What could be the reason pre-recorded audio/visual performances are excluded? Shouldn't this just be for everything? Why would some types of tickets be required to be truthful about fees and not allowed to lie about the tot…

I think that it is simply because the situation is less problematic than with live events. In free countries, and especially the US when it comes to trade, the idea is that people can do whatever they want unless it causes a problem, and if it causes a problem, they will pass the minimum amount of regulation needed to address the problem. My opinion as a consumer would be to ban all hidden fees in all industries, inc…

That sounds more like a civil law vs common law distinction.

In a civil law country if something causes a problem, the legislative branch would be expected to come up with a general solution. (eg https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/unfair-treat...)

In a common law country, if something causes a problem an executive agency or a judge would be expected to figure out a solution that doesn’t set a precedent that is too wide and general.

Re: FTC rule on unfair or deceptive fees to take effect on May 12

#70

Post by KennyBlanken »

throwawaymaths wrote: post #65
brewdad wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Typically the will be advertised as BIG MONTHLY PRICE $50/mo Then an asterisk and tiny, tiny print somewhere below stating "plus taxes and fees" So it depends on how you define "fees not included in the advertised price" but the last time I had a postpaid plan, I couldn't even know how much those added taxes and fees were until my first bill arrived.

it's really never as bad as it is for hotels. I once booked a hotel stay in san francisco which looked like $300 on the website, but after I was done I was charged an extra $200 for various fees which was mostly a san francisco hotel tax.. I never saw it until I checked out . It doesn't even matter if every hotel in SF gets that tax, I don't care, I want to see it before I book the place. Ideally at the "price map" s…

AirBnB doesn't put it on the map because they're competing against hotels, B&Bs, and services like VRBO.

Everyone has an incentive to list as low a price as possible.

For fucks sakes even car dealers are pulling this shit, listing EVs with tax rebates - that people may or may not qualify for - already deducted.

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