An appeal to Apple from Anukari • Hacker News Board

Re: An appeal to Apple from Anukari

#101

Post by School-Cotton » Tue, May 06, 2025, 4:50 PM UTC

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #72

4ndrewl wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Even Wikipedia says Whataboutism can be completely deserved in some cases. It is absolutely deserved here - Apple built a 100 foot tower, and it's grown hairy over the last few decades. Linux built 7 30 foot towers without stairs in the same timeframe; but yelling about the overgrowth on the 100 foot tower is still somehow defensible. If they can't build their own towers correctly, they have no right to act like the…

“Linux” isn’t a person or a company. Different people contribute to it with different goals.

> 90%+ of work on Linux comes from corporate sponsorship

And approximately 0% of these corporate contributors care about the “Linux desktop” experience. Unlike Apple their goal is not to build a consumer-targeted OS.

Linux on the desktop is very, very niche, and even among the people who do use it, a lot of them will spend almost all their time in just a few windows (e.g. terminal, browser, emacs), not a rich array of desktop applications.

Re: An appeal to Apple from Anukari

#102

Post by graemep » Tue, May 06, 2025, 4:51 PM UTC

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #63

galad87 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's surely not perfect, and so much is quite horrible, but at least try to keep the facts in check. AppKit and auto layout are still working fine, they aren't going anywhere any time soon, there is no need to rewrite all the UI code. Core Data threading? Well, it has got its pitfalls, but those are known, and anyway, nothing is forcing you to use it. Xcode is so slim these days, it a ~3 GB download, it doesn't take…

Let's also keep in mind that the Linux desktop commits most of these offenses, but worse. Core Data threading? Does Linux even attempt something like Core Data? How well is that going? Swift? I remember when Linux diehards invented Vala. The Swift of Linux, but with none of the adoption. As for UI code, Linux is finally starting to get a little more stable there. GTK 2 to 3 was a disaster; Qt wasn't fun between major…

Why bring Linux up?

Are the target users for this likely to use Linux (rather than Windows) if the ditched Apple?

> Swift? I remember when Linux diehards invented Vala. The Swift of Linux, but with none of the adoption

Plenty of languages used on Linux. Why pick one that did not gain traction?

> f you weren't using a framework, you needed to have fun learning the quirks of Xorg;

Who does that?

> GTK 2 to 3 was a disaster; Qt wasn't fun between major upgrades

But they are cross platform.

> Will a specific build of Blender outside of a Flatpak still work on the Linux desktop after 2 release cycles?

Does that matter? Maybe a bit of extra work for packagers - and people can use Flatpack or Snap.

Re: An appeal to Apple from Anukari

#103

Post by ForOldHack » Tue, May 06, 2025, 4:52 PM UTC

duped wrote: post #37

thraway3837 wrote: post #30

This is all just too much Stockholm syndrome. Apple’s DX (developer experience) has always been utterly abysmal, and these continued blog posts just goes to show just how bad it is. Proprietary technologies, poor or no documentation, silent deprecations and removals of APIs, slow trickle feed of yearly WWDC releases that enable just a bit more functionality, introducing newer more entrenched ways to do stuff but stil…

I don't disagree with you, but there simply isn't an alternative for pro audio developers. You go where the users are and the majority of the market (by revenue) are Mac users. Now a lot of people may reply to this that Windows isn't that bad with ASIO (third party driver framework) or modern APIs like WASAPI (which is still lacking), or how pipewire is changing things on Linux so you don't need jack anymore (but god…

They sell hardware, that shows demos well. They cannot do a demo at MacWorld because it does not exist anymore and worse, they don't care. I would suggest a jack black/school of rock appeal, but you are speaking to a company that is literally tone deaf to everything but what sells product.

There is no revenue in MacOS, there is only revenue in machines that run A free OS, that they consistently lock their loyal customers out of.

Re: An appeal to Apple from Anukari

#104

Post by pixl97 » Tue, May 06, 2025, 4:52 PM UTC

spookie wrote: post #94

jmull wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Stockholm syndrome I don't think that's apt. What you find to be "abuse" others might find to be the kind of obstacles/issues that every platform/ecosystem has. It probably helps if you never put Apple on a pedestal in the first place, so there's no special disappointment when they inevitably turn out to be imperfect. E.g., just because Apple publishes a new API/framework, that doesn't mean you need to jump on boar…

Their single biggest priority is to provide a better user experience for your customers compared to competitors. Units sold in the smartphone world uses the same function video game consoles' market does: you simply offer a bigger and better software offerings, not just hardware. If you, as a developer, have a worse time contributing to that ecosystem, then it is just a matter of time before the users themselves have…

>Their single biggest priority is to provide a better user experience for your customers compared to competitors.

I mean in late stage capitalism their single biggest priority is to become a rent seeking monopoly by regulatory capture. If they can accomplish that, then user experience is a distant concern.

Luckily it looks like apple is having some problems with that recently.

Re: An appeal to Apple from Anukari

#105

Post by bigyabai » Tue, May 06, 2025, 4:52 PM UTC

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #53

pjmlp wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is still better engineered that dealing with the distribution of the day, reinventing the way to do sound, graphics stack, UI, ...... Once upon a time I thought either GNOME or KDE would win, and we could all enjoy the one Linux distribution, I was proven wrong. Then again, I have been back on Windows as main OS since Windows 7.

I don't know why you are downvoted here. The engineering standards, and churn within the Linux desktop , are hilariously bad. Nobody who uses it has a right to complain about how node_modules has a thousand dependencies and makes your JavaScript app brittle. Their superior Linux desktop won't even be capable of running the same software build outside of a Flatpak without crashes in three years. As for lack of documen…

Desktop Linux is so good today that I have not turned on my Mac in 4 years. Sorry your experience has been so bad, but for ease of programming it is a black-and-white decision. Even Windows is a less excruciating Linux development environment, modern MacOS is a veritable dumpsterfire.

Re: An appeal to Apple from Anukari

#106

Post by newsclues » Tue, May 06, 2025, 4:53 PM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #62

newsclues wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Marketing pushed for features faster than engineering could build them properly to the former standard (quality and documentation).

Ever seen the compiler support tables for ISO managed languages, Web or Khronos standards?

No but I noticed software quality went down when they added emojis

Re: An appeal to Apple from Anukari

#107

Post by bigyabai » Tue, May 06, 2025, 4:59 PM UTC

skydhash wrote: post #89

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that this could be easily applied to many things. To paraphrase: It’s honestly nuts that so many developers continue to try to make software using a bloated JavaScript framework and thousands of Node dependencies. That might also be true but that misses the point - programming is not engineering; nothing is done to an engineer’s preferred standard; and probably never will. It’s like being a CNC Technic…

Software engineering is not programming and is not about clean code. Using electron is building a skyscraper when you want to rest or a suspended bridge for crossing a small river. Even if you can order almost everything and you're just assembling, it is a wasteful and lazy solution.

It's very easy to understand. More platforms makes more money - your tinkertoy MacOS native frameworks aren't worth shit for nothing when Windows users will account for 90% of their customers.

Wasteful? Wasteful is whichever solution takes the most money while giving the least in return. From the perspective of any rational business, not using Electron is an opportunity cost. Any Mac user knows the truth well, the web has been a more reliable runtime than native since Mojave.

Re: An appeal to Apple from Anukari

#108

Post by bigyabai » Tue, May 06, 2025, 5:06 PM UTC

duped wrote: post #37

thraway3837 wrote: post #30

This is all just too much Stockholm syndrome. Apple’s DX (developer experience) has always been utterly abysmal, and these continued blog posts just goes to show just how bad it is. Proprietary technologies, poor or no documentation, silent deprecations and removals of APIs, slow trickle feed of yearly WWDC releases that enable just a bit more functionality, introducing newer more entrenched ways to do stuff but stil…

I don't disagree with you, but there simply isn't an alternative for pro audio developers. You go where the users are and the majority of the market (by revenue) are Mac users. Now a lot of people may reply to this that Windows isn't that bad with ASIO (third party driver framework) or modern APIs like WASAPI (which is still lacking), or how pipewire is changing things on Linux so you don't need jack anymore (but god…

FWIW I have worked on several professional live audio productions and never heard of Anukari once. This is a pretty niche domain regardless of what circles you work in. It's really not about "X job is for Y OS" here.

> there simply isn't an alternative for pro audio developers.

Tell me you don't work on live audio without telling me you don't work on live audio. Windows has always been usable if you have a suitable ASIO (same as you used to use on Mac). Most shows will use some permutation of Windows boxen to handle lighting, visuals rendering, compositing and audio processing. The ratio of Macs to Windows machines is at least 1:10 in my experience.

Heck, nowadays even Linux is viable if you're brave enough. Pipewire has all the same features Coreaudio was lauded for back in the day, in theory you can use it to replace just about anything that isn't conjoined at the waist with AU plugins. Things are very different from how they were in 2012.

Re: An appeal to Apple from Anukari

#109

Post by jmull » Tue, May 06, 2025, 5:06 PM UTC

pixl97 wrote: post #98

jmull wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Stockholm syndrome I don't think that's apt. What you find to be "abuse" others might find to be the kind of obstacles/issues that every platform/ecosystem has. It probably helps if you never put Apple on a pedestal in the first place, so there's no special disappointment when they inevitably turn out to be imperfect. E.g., just because Apple publishes a new API/framework, that doesn't mean you need to jump on boar…

>What you find to be "abuse" others might find to be the kind of obstacles/issues that every platform/ecosystem has. Right, that's why judges are making criminal recommendations to the US prosecutors. No abuse at all.....

The context here was DX. Maybe start a new thread to change to a new topic?

Re: An appeal to Apple from Anukari

#110

Post by scarface_74 » Tue, May 06, 2025, 5:10 PM UTC

bigyabai wrote: post #99

scarface_74 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can’t imagine how often I pine for x86 based Windows laptops with horrible battery life, loud fans, and enough heat that if I work with my laptop on my lap for an extended period of time there will be no future Scarface’s. But I’m locked into my Mac because of the dirth of Windows software. Not to mention all of the great Android tablets that I can’t get or the much faster Android devices…

This would be a more poignant point if you had to sacrifice any of these things to get better developer experience. But you don't, you're intentionally conflating wildly different things to defend an irrational stance.

If my developer experience depended on me using an x86 machine, I would have to sacrifice all of these things