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Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

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Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#231

Post by KuraFire »

protolif wrote: post #180
MichaelSalib wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please go read the original post and pay special attention to the bit where con security gives out awards for people who run around demanding that women show their tits.

I'd like to see some evidence before believing such a tale. If such punch cards did exist, then I'm sure that there would be a picture of one online. In other words: Screenshot, or it didn't happen.

I’d like to give you a yellow card for your tired and sexist casual and nonsensical dismissal of a claim made by a woman about an actual experience she had.

With all the shit women get whenever they raise their voice on these matters, they truly have near-zero incentive to conjure up lies.

Worse, her example of the cards is hardly the worst, most inconceivable thing to be suggested as something that really does happen. Rape and assault really do happen, it's far less difficult to imagine that some guys don't understand how a bingo card with "get a woman to flash her tits at you" is a massive problem and not “just a bit of fun.”

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#232

Post by [deleted] »

agpen wrote: post #83
FuzzyDunlop wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a feminist perspective, it's not very empowering to a woman to have to resort to props and other crazy schemes to get unscrupulous men to fuck off. Men don't have to do it, why should women. I think it'd be helpful to identify why this problem exists in the tech field. Is there a chicken and egg situation where more women in tech would solve these problems, but something about tech prevents more women getting in…

THIS is what prevents more women from going into tech fields. From academia to the workplace, IT/CS has been built into a self-reinforcing boys club. Until on a large scale it is no longer socially acceptable for geeks to treat women like shit, there won't be many women in technical fields.

[deleted]

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#233

Post by gatordan »

natrius wrote: post #198
gatordan wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I commented heavily in the original HN thread because of comments like this. You're not defending the behavior... you're just saying women are literally asking for it. Theres this myth that men who are assholes succeed with women. I suppose they do technically succeed - in getting women with low self esteem to sleep with them through manipulation and "pickup artist" techniques. But how successful do you think they ar…

"I suppose they do technically succeed - in getting women with low self esteem to sleep with them through manipulation and "pickup artist" techniques." "How successful do you think they are with bright, intelligent, worthwhile women who have their act together." This trope is bullshit. People who respond to methods that you disapprove of are somehow less worthy people? Where's your evidence for this? This sort of ins…

They aren't less worthy as human beings, they aren't "sluts" or whatever you thought i meant. In my experience women who are attracted to assholes simply aren't worthwhile in the context of being pursuing romantically - i dont have much to offer them. They are adults and can do what they please. But someone who responds positively to being treated like shit is going to be a waste of time and effort for me. In my experience, it was always because of immaturity or a lack of self esteem that they allowed themselves to be treated poorly.

Yes this is all anecdotal, you caught me, i don't have any studies on the dating habits of women and assholes. I think saying my comments are worse than sexual assault is tad bit hyperbolic.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#234

Post by ceol »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #225
ceol wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original article was talking about a woman who was groped and assaulted. To quote the parent: > It sounds like a lot of this stuff happens at bars during events, not at the events themselves. No one started talking about specifically being hit on until you brought it up, so either you were talking about what the woman went through and mistakingly called it "hitting on", which is what I assumed, or you're talking…

Rereading the conversation chain I admit to misunderstanding the context of this thread. Reading through a bunch of comments I'm sure context bled between threads in my head (HN's pythonesque block comment structure doesn't help matters). Although I qualified my statements very specifically as I anticipated possibly misreading or missing something along the way.

It's fine. I apologize for coming off so aggressively. I'm just tired of people literally defending sexual assault, and because of that, I end up making all my replies snappy.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#235

Post by coridactyl »

reinhardt wrote: post #111
agpen wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When 1 in 4 men get sexually assaulted during their lives, I will start giving one iota of care about poor poor dis-empowered men.

When 1 in N women get drafted and killed during a war, I will start giving one iota of care about poor poor dis-empowered women.

Your comment should get downvoted to oblivion for its sheer lack of originality, panache, and basic human empathy, but let me humor you with a response:

When 1 in N women can serve in the military without being raped by their fellow servicemen, then we can talk.

And then can we have the conversation wherein you attempt to defend your apparent belief that people dying in service of their country is superior to people being RAPED BY THEIR OWN COUNTRYMEN in service of their country.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#236

Post by blhack »

demewmew wrote: post #145
sethg wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a feminist perspective, it's not very empowering to a woman to have to resort to props and other crazy schemes to get unscrupulous men to fuck off. People who already have power do not need props and schemes, because, well, they have power. I know that if I grab my boss’s crotch during a meeting and he says ”you have thirty seconds to convince me not to fire your sorry ass right now”, every witness to the event…

So well said. When people don't take you seriously, clever hacks are the next best solution. The "What She Really Said" IRC bot story reminds me of this as well.

No they're not. The cards thing establishes the premise that women are incapable of holding social status.

They're not.

The cards enforce the very thing they're trying to prevent.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#237

Post by coridactyl »

andy_herbert wrote: post #33

No excuses here, but who would have thought that male hormones and alcohol would lead to such behavior.

Everyone has hormones, most people have sex drives, and a lot of people drink. It's only the douchebags that attribute their awful behavior to the mysterious power of physiology and depressants that doesn't seem to bring out the inner creepers of anyone else. Indeed, the douchebags would claim that everyone else is a douchebag, they're just hiding it. A charming lot.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#238

Post by learc83 »

sethg wrote: post #184
learc83 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No. If you assault me, guess what's happening? I'm going to hit you in the fucking face Have fun explaining that to the cops (and the jury). "After I touched her inappropriately she slapped me, so fearing for my life, I punched her in the face , breaking her nose" Hell, if you do that you're likely to get punched in the face by a random passerby.

The slapped puncher is not going to say that. He’s going to say something like “I was in a crowded bar and some crazy bitch hauled off and slapped me, and I don’t know about you, but when someone up and hits me, my first impulse is to hit them back. Now she says I ’touched her inappropriately’ before she slapped me. I don’t know what she’s talking about. Maybe my hand brushed against her accidentally or something, bu…

When the cops show up, and there's a crying women with a broken bloody nose or a black eye next to a guy with a faded pink hand print on his cheek, who do you think is going to jail?

There is a concept of escalation in most states' self defense statutes.

If a 110 pound woman slaps you in the face and you react with a force that could cause death or serious injury, you'd be hard pressed to make anyone believe that you reasonably feared for your life (or serious injury).

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#239

Post by s_baby »

demewmew wrote: post #227
s_baby wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your statement is more sensible and on the fence. She's implying men are the root of women's problems in tech. That there is a conspiracy to marginalize. Women have broken into countless so-called "boys clubs". Doctors, lawyers, marketing, etc... How is tech an exceptionally hostile environment towards women?

You're making a lot of assumptions that may not be correct in your reading, because they certainly weren't explicitly stated: in particular, that agpen is a woman (not a given from the comment in question), and two, that "men are the root of women's problems in tech." agpen is criticizing boys' clubs, a term that encapsulates a certain culture, behaviors, and set of beliefs. The gender of those participating in that…

>agpen is criticizing boys' clubs, a term that encapsulates a certain culture, behaviors, and set of beliefs.

What are these cultures, behaviors, and beliefs exactly?

To me, boy's club is another rhetorically nebulous term like patriarchy created by the girl's club. As long as we're speaking of generalizations, let me tell you about the girl's club. I used to date a girl that went to an all women's college. Every time I visited her in the dorms it was customary for everyone to yell out, "alert, man on board". When we ate at the cafeteria, five girls(FIVE), walked up to her and informed her there is no need for her to be dating a man. Without any consideration to my presence. Despite this unwelcoming atmosphere many were eager to inform me of the boy's club, patriarchy, and male privilege like they were reading a script of political talking points. These are women that are socialized to be hateful towards men and are blinded by this hate. They are socialized to feel like victims even though they go to a fancy school the average male couldn't afford.

Yes, there are gender centered problems that need to be addressed. But there is a lot of non-sense rhetorical noise out there created by the girl's club. It's like the girl who cried wolf.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#240

Post by learc83 »

sukuriant wrote: post #208
asmithmd1 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

assault is harmful or offensive contact. The assault happened with the first inappropriate touch.

Devil's advocate: Prove a grope occurred. It's a light, soft-tissue touch. A slap is a violent strike with an open palm, and a punch is a violent strike with a closed fist.

>A slap is a violent strike with an open palm, and a punch is a violent strike with a closed fist.

A slap from a 110 pound woman (just a hypothetical weight) is not equal to a punch from a 160 pound man.

A punch from the man can easily cause lasting harm--broken nose, broken jaw--an open-handed slap across the cheek from the woman cannot (barring some crazy edge case).

>Prove a grope occurred.

She's not going to have to. The cop who arrests you is going to believe the crying bleeding woman over the man with barley a scratch on him--and eventually the prosecutor and the jury will too.

It's best just not to punch someone much physically weaker than you are unless you actually fear for your safety, e.g., she's holding a knife.

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