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In kids, EEG monitoring of consciousness safely reduces anesthetic use

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Re: In kids, EEG monitoring of consciousness safely reduces anesthetic use

#11
Why is this about kids?

Do we already measure EEG for adults? Or not? If we do, why has it taken so long to do with kids? If not, is this a first step? Why start with kids rather than adults?

This article provides shockingly little context.

Re: In kids, EEG monitoring of consciousness safely reduces anesthetic use

#12

"Kids don't need anesthetics. If they are young enough, they won't remember the pain, so you can just operate without anesthetics. They are also easier to restrain than adults." This was state of the art in medicine for quite some time. I fear the general trend of "medication bad" will get us back to those dark times. Btw, those dark times ended only as recently as 1987! https://www.newsweek.com/when-doctors-start-us…

My wife is a doctor and looked into the history of this for a bit more context. Apparently, there were some cases in 1987 where premature neonates were paralysed but not given general anaesthesia due to risk of immediate death. This led to a position statement from the paediatric society at the time that nobody should be operated on without pain relief / general anaesthetic.

Note that this does not mean that general anaesthesia was not given at all to kids before 1987, but that there was a belief in the USA (and elsewhere) that newborns did not need pain relief during anaesthesia. Your use of 'kids' versus 'newborns' is a bit misleading in that respect.

Re: In kids, EEG monitoring of consciousness safely reduces anesthetic use

#13

Why is this about kids? Do we already measure EEG for adults? Or not? If we do, why has it taken so long to do with kids? If not, is this a first step? Why start with kids rather than adults? This article provides shockingly little context.

My wife is a doctor and provided me (layperson) the following context. Apparently EEG is now used in most adult surgeries and has been increasing over time. It is used as a marker of how 'asleep' you are to guide how much medication you get. However, this is relatively recent and the use of EEG in kids (where the brainwaves are different) was not studied/used as much. It seems like this study pushes towards a future where EEGs are routine in most if not all surgeries to make them safer - especially as the next generation of anaesthetists are trained in it.

Re: In kids, EEG monitoring of consciousness safely reduces anesthetic use

#14
What is the level of unconsciousness during anesthesia? Is it "sleep-like" unconsciousness or "neurons do basically nothing" level? Whenever I read about anesthesia I am wondering if we are not accidentally killing people (and creating new ones) like in teletransportation paradox. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletransportation_paradox

Re: In kids, EEG monitoring of consciousness safely reduces anesthetic use

#15
post #14

What is the level of unconsciousness during anesthesia? Is it "sleep-like" unconsciousness or "neurons do basically nothing" level? Whenever I read about anesthesia I am wondering if we are not accidentally killing people (and creating new ones) like in teletransportation paradox. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletransportation_paradox

Just anecdata, but I was under a few times as kid. It was like teleporting into the future. Last memory was being told to count backwards, next memory was waking up in the recovery room.

Apparently I had a small anesthetic overdose in the hospital as a kid and woke up a day or two later than expected, but from my perspective, nothing happened and I just went to sleep then woke up.

Re: In kids, EEG monitoring of consciousness safely reduces anesthetic use

#16

Why is this about kids? Do we already measure EEG for adults? Or not? If we do, why has it taken so long to do with kids? If not, is this a first step? Why start with kids rather than adults? This article provides shockingly little context.

My wife is a doctor and provided me (layperson) the following context. Apparently EEG is now used in most adult surgeries and has been increasing over time. It is used as a marker of how 'asleep' you are to guide how much medication you get. However, this is relatively recent and the use of EEG in kids (where the brainwaves are different) was not studied/used as much. It seems like this study pushes towards a future…

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Re: In kids, EEG monitoring of consciousness safely reduces anesthetic use

#17

Why is this about kids? Do we already measure EEG for adults? Or not? If we do, why has it taken so long to do with kids? If not, is this a first step? Why start with kids rather than adults? This article provides shockingly little context.

My wife is a doctor and provided me (layperson) the following context. Apparently EEG is now used in most adult surgeries and has been increasing over time. It is used as a marker of how 'asleep' you are to guide how much medication you get. However, this is relatively recent and the use of EEG in kids (where the brainwaves are different) was not studied/used as much. It seems like this study pushes towards a future…

I’m good here. Thanks.

Re: In kids, EEG monitoring of consciousness safely reduces anesthetic use

#18

"Kids don't need anesthetics. If they are young enough, they won't remember the pain, so you can just operate without anesthetics. They are also easier to restrain than adults." This was state of the art in medicine for quite some time. I fear the general trend of "medication bad" will get us back to those dark times. Btw, those dark times ended only as recently as 1987! https://www.newsweek.com/when-doctors-start-us…

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Re: In kids, EEG monitoring of consciousness safely reduces anesthetic use

#19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This research is aimed precisely at making it safe enough to administer general anesthesia in these populations for that to become standard of care. Let me preempt one possible line here: I do not love the circumstances under which I would have been circumcised as a neonate in Mississippi in the very early 1980s, and I do not resent the result. Living that far tied up in the past is for men who can't figure out how t…

I didn't say anything about a foreskin anywhere. And my point is, they did not just do minor stuff like a circumcision (which I think is a barbaric, pointless and immoral practice to inflict on non-consenting minors in any case except to maybe cure phimosis). They did major surgery. Like opening the cranium or abdomen. Like removing limbs. Like removing burnt skin by brushing it off and applying skin grafts. And no,…

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Re: In kids, EEG monitoring of consciousness safely reduces anesthetic use

#20

Why is this about kids? Do we already measure EEG for adults? Or not? If we do, why has it taken so long to do with kids? If not, is this a first step? Why start with kids rather than adults? This article provides shockingly little context.

Doctors not too long ago would tell you that infants don't experience pain.

There are a lot of not backed by science beliefs in the medical field that won't die until the doctors that believe them do.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23548489/

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