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Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

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Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#181

Post by Zenst »

asmithmd1 wrote: post #71
blhack wrote: post #40

It sounds like a lot of this stuff happens at bars during events, not at the events themselves. How common is this behavior at bars in general, independent from a hacker con? Also: some of the girls that I know who are hackers are offended at the idea of red/yellow cards. The implication there seems to be that they're helpless, and need somebody to swoop in and save them. That, at least to some of my girl friends, is…

Instead of the red card if someone touches you inappropriately why not slap them in the face - hard.

yeah, hardly a good approach in a world of lawyers and lets face it, there will be alot of geeks there who would gladly like to be red carded and I suspect somebody will make up some teashirts saying "red carding welcome".

Still I'm sure some people will abuse this system like any system and lets face it the audience will not exactly be angels in not abusing any form of system. Lets face it, in Football it's not exactly perfect. Unless all events are video'd to death and can be verified then it is abusable. That said how long until somebody does a erect nipple/penis video recognition system, scary thoughts on many levels.

Today red cards, tomorrow video survalence and full location tracking with all your comminications monitored so you can be at a event were people complain about privacy.

   There again I thought sexual harrasment was a against the law and that carries more weight than any token scoring system that trivialises the offence.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#182

Post by ceol »

wpietri wrote: post #176
colmvp wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How very sexist. I don't doubt that worldwide, men suffer sexual and physical assault from the opposite sex at a lower rate than women. However, in developed countries, I wouldn't be surprised if it's closer than we collectively think. Here is an informative article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jun/07/feminism... Men are probably less likely to report incidents due to humiliation or rather, lack of a…

Is there something about these cards that prevents them from being used regardless of the gender of the participants?

No. These are just a bunch of guys predictably derailing the discussion of how women are harassed at tech conferences with, "But sometimes it's a guy, too! Ergo, we shouldn't get anywhere in this discussion!"

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#183

Post by ceol »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #167
djahng wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're saying is this is how men behave and women should either put up with it and stop complaining, or stay home?

If we're talking about being hit on, then yes: at a bar, no one has the right to not be hit on. If one cannot handle having to fend off unwanted advances in environments where it is appropriate to make your attraction known, then you should stay out of that environment. However, one does have a right to not be harassed. If someone doesn't take no for an answer then they should be handled appropriately.

> at a bar, no one has the right to not be hit on.

Sometimes, people like to go to bars to hang out with their friends or significant others. Believe it or not, entering a bar does not give you the right to run around groping people.

The sexual assault apology in this thread is unbelievable.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#184

Post by sethg »

learc83 wrote: post #108
blhack wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the consensus that all but one of my hacker friends, including the women, have come to. No. If you assault me, guess what's happening? I'm going to hit you in the fucking face, and most of the people here, since we're, you know, a community are going to physically remove you from the area. Edit: if this wasn't clear, the "I" in this story is would be my female friends.

>No. If you assault me, guess what's happening? I'm going to hit you in the fucking face Have fun explaining that to the cops (and the jury). "After I touched her inappropriately she slapped me, so fearing for my life, I punched her in the face , breaking her nose" Hell, if you do that you're likely to get punched in the face by a random passerby.

The slapped puncher is not going to say that. He’s going to say something like “I was in a crowded bar and some crazy bitch hauled off and slapped me, and I don’t know about you, but when someone up and hits me, my first impulse is to hit them back. Now she says I ’touched her inappropriately’ before she slapped me. I don’t know what she’s talking about. Maybe my hand brushed against her accidentally or something, but really, if she’s so hypersensitive she should keep the hell out of crowded bars.”

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#185

Post by ceol »

blhack wrote: post #133
learc83 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No. If you assault me, guess what's happening? I'm going to hit you in the fucking face Have fun explaining that to the cops (and the jury). "After I touched her inappropriately she slapped me, so fearing for my life, I punched her in the face , breaking her nose" Hell, if you do that you're likely to get punched in the face by a random passerby.

Um. What? "Somebody began physically assaulting me so I responded by defending myself." Find me a jury that will convict somebody for that.

"Defending myself" implies the need to be defended. If she slaps you across the cheek due to you groping her, hitting her would not be justified. She wasn't continuously attacking you; she was responding to your assault.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#186

Post by colmvp »

wpietri wrote: post #176
colmvp wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How very sexist. I don't doubt that worldwide, men suffer sexual and physical assault from the opposite sex at a lower rate than women. However, in developed countries, I wouldn't be surprised if it's closer than we collectively think. Here is an informative article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jun/07/feminism... Men are probably less likely to report incidents due to humiliation or rather, lack of a…

Is there something about these cards that prevents them from being used regardless of the gender of the participants?

I was responding to the flippant statement: "When 1 in 4 men get sexually assaulted during their lives, I will start giving one iota of care about poor poor dis-empowered men," as if somehow men who are sexually assaulted are less important.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#187

Post by ahelwer »

protolif wrote: post #172
djahng wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're saying is this is how men behave and women should either put up with it and stop complaining, or stay home?

No, what I am saying is this is how drunk people act, and if one finds it too offensive, then the logical conclusion is to remove one's self from the equation, rather than demanding that the world change. You can't boil the ocean.

I'd like you to consider just how dubious the utility of the "that's just how things are" argument is when it comes to women's issues.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#188

Post by reinhardt »

cbs wrote: post #98
agpen wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When 1 in 4 men get sexually assaulted during their lives, I will start giving one iota of care about poor poor dis-empowered men.

edit: I give up. Who was I to think that the fact 1-in6 men are sexually abused while underage was a quick and easy response to a remark that men are not sexually assaulted in any real numbers. I should have looked up the statistics on all demographics, because apparently that sexual abuse isn't good enough sexual abuse to refute the weight the parent poster was giving to the 1-in-4 women statistic. Thanks sethg, I s…

Yeap, judging from the downvotes in all sibling posts, the "think of the women" PC brigade is on witchhunt tonight. God forbid someone brings up an area where men are less pampered. Oh well.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#189

Post by ahelwer »

mindcrime wrote: post #31
brianjyee wrote: post #3

Not specific to hacker culture, but I always felt there was a bit of a double standard when it comes to alpha male behavior. Women are attracted to aggressive men. Women like men who take charge. Women like men who are the initiators. Now obviously there is a line that crosses over into sexual harassment, but the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who succeed in sexual pursuits most often. It's alm…

It's almost as if when the girl is attracted to the guy, it's flirting, but when she isn't, it's creepy/sexual harassment. Yep, and that makes it incredibly hard to be a guy. You're almost "damned if you do, damned if you don't" when it comes to flirting and initiating things. Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to know - in advance - how someone is going to react. That said, there is a line somewhere, of behavior…

Holy moly. I think you need to take a good look at this blog post, and all the blog posts it links:

http://captainawkward.com/2012/08/11/the-c-word/

Hopefully this read will clear some stuff up. You need to lose the victim complex.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#190

Post by blhack »

ceol wrote: post #185
blhack wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um. What? "Somebody began physically assaulting me so I responded by defending myself." Find me a jury that will convict somebody for that.

"Defending myself" implies the need to be defended. If she slaps you across the cheek due to you groping her, hitting her would not be justified . She wasn't continuously attacking you; she was responding to your assault.

My post was confusing. It was meant to say that my female friends' reaction was that if somebody assaulted them, they're not going to give them a red card, they're going to physically defend themselves.
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