Are there problems that actually occur AT the defcon conference? Sounds like most of the anecdotes are from parties, where alcohol is a factor. Is defcon a conference or a party?
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Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
131–140 of 267 posts
Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
#132From the comments http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassm...
I have been attending DefCon since DCIV and I've had my share of confrontations with drunk idiots who think their flirting methods are acceptable. A well worded put-down almost always keeps these guys at bay. A well placed arm-bar or knee typically takes care of the rest. I played Vanna Vinyl at Hacker Jeopardy for three years (and Beer Betty once). I had hordes of guys asking me for photo-ops when I was all dolled-up for HJ. 99% of them didn't recognise me during the day when I was in shorts and a tshirt w/no make-up.
I love DefCon and have no intention on not attending until DT calls it quits. It's the one week out of the year that I get to spend with my friends and adopted from all over the world. DefCon has never been a "professional" conference. It's a hacker convention/weekend long, cut-loose party with talks. (There are talks at DefCon? ;) If you want professionalism, attend the BH conference the week prior.
Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
#133Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is exactly the consensus that all but one of my hacker friends, including the women, have come to. No. If you assault me, guess what's happening? I'm going to hit you in the fucking face, and most of the people here, since we're, you know, a community are going to physically remove you from the area. Edit: if this wasn't clear, the "I" in this story is would be my female friends.
>No. If you assault me, guess what's happening? I'm going to hit you in the fucking face Have fun explaining that to the cops (and the jury). "After I touched her inappropriately she slapped me, so fearing for my life, I punched her in the face , breaking her nose" Hell, if you do that you're likely to get punched in the face by a random passerby.
Um. What?
"Somebody began physically assaulting me so I responded by defending myself."
Find me a jury that will convict somebody for that.
Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
#134Earlier quoted context omitted.
When 1 in 4 men get sexually assaulted during their lives, I will start giving one iota of care about poor poor dis-empowered men.
When 1 in N women get drafted and killed during a war, I will start giving one iota of care about poor poor dis-empowered women.
When did they reinstate the draft?
Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
#135From one of the comments: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassm... > Who I really wish would grow up at DEFCON is the EFF. Once again they have a fund raiser in which one of the prizes is a picture with one of the strippers DEF CON hires every year. Seriously?
They're not strippers, and they're not hired. They're volunteers, and it was their idea. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassm... and http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassm...
The slut shaming is very ironic.
Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
#136Earlier quoted context omitted.
When 1 in 4 men get sexually assaulted during their lives, I will start giving one iota of care about poor poor dis-empowered men.
edit: I give up. Who was I to think that the fact 1-in6 men are sexually abused while underage was a quick and easy response to a remark that men are not sexually assaulted in any real numbers. I should have looked up the statistics on all demographics, because apparently that sexual abuse isn't good enough sexual abuse to refute the weight the parent poster was giving to the 1-in-4 women statistic. Thanks sethg, I s…
Right, but that’s during childhood, not as an adult going to work and attending technical conferences. I can think of only one person I’ve met since turning 18 who was, umm, skeevy to me in a sexual way, and that person was male.
(He didn’t actually assault me, but I later learned that one MIT fraternity had nicknamed him “the NAMBLA man”, and a while after that there was an article in the school paper reporting that he had just done time for rape.)
Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sometime it comes very close to being that when the girl is attracted to the guy, it's flirting, but when she isn't, it's creepy/sexual harassment. That's because it's a personal, relationship kind of thing. Your behavior depends partly on the other person. There is no single set of rules that will cover all people, all circumstances, all the time. (For "polite company" or formal gatherings there are of course protoc…
Absolutely. So you'd agree that what's over the line in one circumstance could be interpreted as harmless flirting in another. And that much of the time, the guy must guess where that line is and that he'll be wrong sometimes.
> And that much of the time, the guy must guess where that line is and that he'll be wrong sometimes.
Violating someone's personal space or verbally harassing them isn't flirting, its harassment and assault. There is no conflation of the two, and those that do try to relate them are doing so to enable and excuse their harassing behavior. In cases where you don't know what is acceptable, honest and polite communication always works, and of course you could always DO NOTHING and stop worrying about it.
Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
#138DefCon should follow the advice of the characters from Bizet's Carmen: Quand il s'agit de tromperie, de duperie, de volerie, il est toujours bon, sur ma foi, d'avoir les femmes avec soi. Et sans elles, mes toutes belles, on ne fait jamais rien de bien! In its day, it was probably a bit of socially accepted misogyny, but I think we can re-contextualize it here. If one engaging in strip club antics has no women as frie…
When it comes to cheating, duping, to thievery,
It is always good, upon my word
To have women with you.
And without them, the very lovely ones,
One never does anything right!Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
#139DefCon or 5 million college bars across the country? You could have replaced those two terms and ended up with the same article. Perhaps the problem isn't just a nerd demographic issue.
Does that mean that we shouldn't tackle it? No, this is our culture too, and we should fix it.
I completely agree! I just wanted to point out that the problem goes far deeper than a specific demographic. It's a societal issue on a national scale, possibly (probably) even more broad.
Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
#140Not specific to hacker culture, but I always felt there was a bit of a double standard when it comes to alpha male behavior. Women are attracted to aggressive men. Women like men who take charge. Women like men who are the initiators. Now obviously there is a line that crosses over into sexual harassment, but the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who succeed in sexual pursuits most often. It's alm…
There was a time when I would've been the one writing that comment, so I know what you mean. It is frustrating for meek guys (I count myself as one too) to feel like we're being called out along with harassers. But ultimately I don't think what you're saying is accurate. It took me a long time to realize this because I didn't have very good data to work from--I didn't have a large set of observations of interactions…
In this thread we find relationship advice from geeks (average HN reader I presume). It is funny because I speak as one and HN is the last place I expect to read such comments. But saying "I'm sorry; I didn't mean to offend you. Could you tell me what about what I said bothered you?" is the most technical and least pro-flirty (is that even a word?) thing I have read in this thread. As a more technical person myself, one part of me says it is appropriate to get feedback so that we can perform better next time. But the normal person inside of me screams in horror after reading it because somehow it kinds of seals the deal for it. That seems like one thing i should never say if I am interested in initiating a relationship of any kind. It just instinctively feels wrong. But hat could be just me.