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Accountability Sinks

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Re: Accountability Sinks

#111

Post by chrisweekly »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #66

My go-to example of a whole mesh of "accountability sinks" is... cybersecurity. In the real world, this field is really not about the tech and math and crypto - almost all of it is about distributing and dispersing liability through contractual means. That's why you install endpoint security tools. That's why you're forced to fulfill all kinds of requirements, some of them nonsensical or counterproductive, but necess…

+1 Insightful

Thank you for sharing this really illuminating take. I spend an unreasonable amount of time dealing with software security, and you've put things in a light where it makes a bit more sense.

Re: Accountability Sinks

#112

Post by lantry »

dendodge wrote: post #97
cheschire wrote: post #36

I always remind myself when I have to go to the DMV[0] that I should plan on leaving with nothing more than another action or set of actions to take. I never enter the DMV expecting to complete a process, and the workers behind the counter always have this visible, visceral response when I DONT lose my fucking mind at their response to something. When I continue to be pleasant and understanding it’s like they suddenl…

Off-topic, but since you mention it, I've always been confused about what Americans always seem to be doing at the DMV. It seems to be a staple of pop culture that people are always there and the queue is always very long, but I've never known what anyone is actually trying to achieve. The DVLA in the UK doesn't have a high-street presence. I took my driving test once, then received my driving licence in the post. Wh…

It's different in every state, but mostly it's an outdated stereotype that still sticks around even though it's not really indicative of reality. Most states let you do almost everything online, and when you do have to go in you can usually schedule an appointment and not wait in line at all.

Re: Accountability Sinks

#113

Post by draw_down »

lantry wrote: post #112
dendodge wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Off-topic, but since you mention it, I've always been confused about what Americans always seem to be doing at the DMV. It seems to be a staple of pop culture that people are always there and the queue is always very long, but I've never known what anyone is actually trying to achieve. The DVLA in the UK doesn't have a high-street presence. I took my driving test once, then received my driving licence in the post. Wh…

It's different in every state, but mostly it's an outdated stereotype that still sticks around even though it's not really indicative of reality. Most states let you do almost everything online, and when you do have to go in you can usually schedule an appointment and not wait in line at all.

[dead]

Re: Accountability Sinks

#114

Post by Spivak »

godelski wrote: post #83
xg15 wrote: post #49

One example that's missing from the list is the TV series 24. A recurring plot point was that, yes, of course torture is bad and it's against the rules and we don't do it, etc etc, but it just so happens that here is such an exceptional, unprecedented, deeply urgent emergency situation where we need to have the information now or horrible things will happen, we need the hero who breaks the rules and goes on torturing…

Convictions aren't convictions if you abandon them when it's hard. It's just cosplay

This is simplifying the definition to the point of defining the term out of existence. No one actually has any convictions in this world. This is actually kinda bad if your goal is for people to really think about ethical issues and try to maintain a degree of rational consistency.

Plus being so black and white in the manner you're describing would.. well actually be really stupid a lot of the times. The fact that Batman doesn't kill the Joker is a storytelling device, in the real world it would be monumentally stupid to do anything other than blow his brains out. Literally millions of lives saved. But it also makes sense, and his good, that Batman still maintain is strong conviction to not kill despite choosing to do it sometimes.

Rules necessarily have exceptions and it's healthy to do so, black and white thinking should be for the jedi/sith, not real life humans.

Re: Accountability Sinks

#115

Post by vishnugupta »

David Graeber has written a really good book about this exact topic and one that I highly recommend. He explores why and how bureaucracy crept up on us.

“ The Utopia of Rules: On Technology, Stupidity, and the Secret Joys of Bureaucracy”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Utopia_of_Rules

Re: Accountability Sinks

#116

Post by Tabular-Iceberg »

The KLM squirrel problem is arguably the opposite problem as all the other examples. It would have been a simple matter to call up KLM's corporate counsel and have them figure out how to both comply with the government's order and the country's animal welfare laws.

So really a case of not enough bureaucracy rather than too much.

Re: Accountability Sinks

#117

Post by closewith »

n_ary wrote: post #57
bflesch wrote: post #20

The reader can feel a glimpse of the author's ego the moment he explains his skills as a Google Site Reliabiliy Engineer and his glorious work on improving gmail post-mortems right after the section where a hospital team saves various people in a mass casuality situation by empowering nurses to perform formally doctor-only tasks. Only with a healthy dose of cynicism I can understand where he's going. While the topic…

> he explains his skills as a Google Site Reliabiliy Engineer and his glorious work on improving gmail post-mortems right after the section where a hospital team saves various people in a mass casuality situation by empowering nurses to perform formally doctor-only tasks. Isn’t this the practice we do to sell ourselves during interview about quantifying our work and value? I firmly believe that the author is the perf…

I think it's firmly on-topic as the author clearly suffers from delusions of grandeur which causes them to greatly overestimate the impact of their actions, leading them to flawed conclusions about accountability.

Re: Accountability Sinks

#118

Post by nkrisc »

apples_oranges wrote: post #96
franze wrote: post #47

I'm now in a stage of my consulting career where I sometimes really get called into big organisation just to find out, that whatever they need to do is already panned out and they all want to do it! Still they call me cause ... it's a big decision and the "higher ups" (which quite often are not even part of the workshop/session then) want an external expert voice. cause the responsibility for this decision lies with…

I always thought that was a big reason for buying external consulting. Reminds me of that George Clooney Movie

Michael Clayton?

Re: Accountability Sinks

#119

Post by vishnugupta »

Spivak wrote: post #114
godelski wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Convictions aren't convictions if you abandon them when it's hard. It's just cosplay

This is simplifying the definition to the point of defining the term out of existence. No one actually has any convictions in this world. This is actually kinda bad if your goal is for people to really think about ethical issues and try to maintain a degree of rational consistency. Plus being so black and white in the manner you're describing would.. well actually be really stupid a lot of the times. The fact that Ba…

It’s interesting that you picked up The Dark Knight. The Joker says that he’s only holding a mirror to the society which I tend to agree with somewhat. He used the people from inside the system to take on Batman and in fact succeeds. Killing him would achieve absolutely nothing when the system is so insidiously corrupt.

Re: Accountability Sinks

#120

Post by vishnugupta »

xg15 wrote: post #49

One example that's missing from the list is the TV series 24. A recurring plot point was that, yes, of course torture is bad and it's against the rules and we don't do it, etc etc, but it just so happens that here is such an exceptional, unprecedented, deeply urgent emergency situation where we need to have the information now or horrible things will happen, we need the hero who breaks the rules and goes on torturing…

What’s also interesting is that the tortured always turn out to be the bad guys. It never happens that he mistakenly tortured a good guy.
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