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Uber Boston Has Been Served

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Re: Uber Boston Has Been Served

#131

Post by jellicle »

andrewpi wrote: post #44
tptacek wrote: post #4

Two tickets were apparently issued: (i) For operating an unlicensed livery service (ii) For using a non-approved mechanism for metering the ride The C&D at issue here covers (ii). At its heart, the complaint is that Boston has standardized on a way of metering passengers, and Uber has replaced that standard with GPS. Presumably, cab drivers in Boston could not simply choose to replace their meters with GPS monitors,…

Except Uber isn't a cab, it's a private car service, which is generally less regulated. Rates for private car services are generally negotiated between the driver and passenger, and if both parties agree to use Uber's GPS-based software, I don't see what Massachusetts's problem is.

If Uber were using flat rates, this problem wouldn't exist. But Uber is actually selling miles-in-a-cab, and the government is rightfully pointing out that due to a very extensive history of businesses manipulating weights and measures to increase profits, the measuring device used to measure miles-in-a-cab ought to be one that has been inspected by the government.

Re: Uber Boston Has Been Served

#132

Post by rprasad »

neilk wrote: post #99
defen wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most ridiculous example of this that I've seen is that some states require a license for the practice of interior design . Louisiana comes to mind but I believe there are others. It's really an example of the phenomenon that a small group of dedicated individuals with a vested interest in an outcome are often able to overcome a much larger group that has a small, diffuse, or unknown interest in the opposite outco…

This was in the NYTimes a few weeks ago: "So you think you can be a hair braider?" Not without two years of cosmetology school, which should set you back $16,000. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/17/magazine/so-you-think-you-... Nobody's arguing that people who perform a service shouldn't have an awareness of basic hygiene, and that could definitely be regulated... but requiring $16K up front is just rent-seeking. Not…

The purpose of the education and testing requirement for cosmetologists and barbers is not an arbitrary financial hurdle; it is a legitimate safety function of the government.

These people will be using very sharp tools on your head. Tools which may draw blood, or worse. The education and testing requirement ensures that such people know how to safely use those tools across a wide variety of situations (i.e., requests), and can demonstrate that they are actually able to use those tools safely in such situations.

Should the schooling cost that much? No, and it usually doesn't unless you go with a private school. Smaller cosmetology schools cost in the neighborhood of a few hundred. Alternatively, if you feel strongly enough about this, you could open your own school. The primary expense is facilities (including equipment and supplies), since this type of education is experiential--you learn by doing, not by watching it or reading about it.

Re: Uber Boston Has Been Served

#133

Post by rprasad »

jaylevitt wrote: post #77
andrewpi wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except Uber isn't a cab, it's a private car service, which is generally less regulated. Rates for private car services are generally negotiated between the driver and passenger, and if both parties agree to use Uber's GPS-based software, I don't see what Massachusetts's problem is.

More importantly, Uber is neither a cab NOR a private car service. It's a communications network that links private car services with people who want to get a ride from the private car service.

By that definition, no cab companies are cabs, since that is exactly what the cab companies do--arrange trips between independently contracted cab drivers and potential customers.

Under the legal definition of cab services in many municipalities, Uber is a cab service rather than a livery service. In other municipalities, Uber is merely a livery service. In the U.S., each municipality gets to define what a cab service and a livery service are (because that is a local power under the federal system of government).

Re: Uber Boston Has Been Served

#134

Post by rprasad »

gojomo wrote: post #109
DannoHung wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An untrackable actor can't pick someone up or be paid, but how hard is it for the actor to lie to the system? How hard is it for them to change their identity to the system? How hard is it for the counterparty to cause problems and how hard is it for him to change his identity? And what if there are competitors to Uber? What if these competitors, as part of their attempt to get a wider car network refuse to rate thos…

It's harder for an actor to masquerade under an Uber-style system than traditional regulation. Every move is tracked, and customers could even get photographs of registered drivers via their own trusted channel -- as opposed to the easily-faked licensing documents carried by traditional cabs. (Big cities sometimes have 'gypsy cabs' whose markings and meters can be hard for even local police to distinguish from licens…

It's harder for an actor to masquerade under an Uber-style system than traditional regulation. Every move is tracked, and customers could even get photographs of registered drivers via their own trusted channel -- as opposed to the easily-faked licensing documents carried by traditional cabs. (Big cities sometimes have 'gypsy cabs' whose markings and meters can be hard for even local police to distinguish from licensed cabs.)

Uh, no. I don't know what podunk city you live in, but in my city, cabs must have GPS devices, driver's licenses, and a medallion, in addition to specially marked cars. All of these are inspected at least yearly, compared to Uber's one-and-done verification system.

And what if there are competitors? As long as all of them are branded, and can be reviewed on third-party sites, customers can decide whether they like the power of driver reviews, or some other mechanism for checking abuses.

I'm sure some drunk guy will have to presence of mind to review multiple car services at 3am in the morning. Cab services are regulated because the passenger has no or limited choice in their selection or their ability to review the available cars.

But now for users of technology, conditions A, B, and C are gone. Anonymous pick-ups are precluded by design.

Uh, no. See drunk guy at a bar at 3am, above. Uber does not solve this. Technology is not the magical solution to everything. Regulation exists to solve problems in this area which technology cannot, and especially in Uber's case, does not solve.

Indeed, if anything, Uber simply makes the fraud problem worse. Because there's very little to stop someone from scamming Uber, and there's a lot of financial incentive for Uber to downplay or even hide fraud.

Re: Uber Boston Has Been Served

#135

Post by rprasad »

marshray wrote: post #107

I'm not impressed with Uber. I read the entire article twice and many of the comments, then went to their home page. I still have no idea what they do other than it somehow relates to taxicab service.

Uber is a taxi/livery service that magically uses technology to do things that shuttle/livery services in major cities have already been doing for years.

The difference is that: (1) Uber is a startup, (2) Uber is backed by YC, (3) Uber lets anyone be a driver, (3) Uber ignores the laws and/or regulations in the cities that it operates until it gets caught and threatened with major lawsuits/fines, and (4) Uber promises 10-minute pickups (sub-hourly timeframes between reservations and pickup are the defining line between livery services and cab services in many cities).

Re: Uber Boston Has Been Served

#136

Post by carterschonwald »

anulman wrote: post #115
carterschonwald wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Super lucid break down of a lot of the issues. I have a bit of operation understanding because very early spring, a friend and I were exploring doing an fleet/taxi management application for the NYC FHV drivers and even were at the TLC taxi app rfp reading. All of these points are lucid and concord with my knowledge Note: I'm not doing anything in that space presently (merely did a thorough exploration of it), all th…

Thanks, Carter! My partner Krista tried to come into town for that meeting, but they switched the date on her. You almost met! The human factor is definitely a huge challenge in this industry, and I can understand anyone's aversion to it. That said, if you ever want to chat taxi tech (or FP -- we're migrating more and more of our backend to Erlang every day, and I'd love to learn from your Haskell experience ;), drop…

emailed ya :) reply

Re: Uber Boston Has Been Served

#137

Post by andylei »

driverdan wrote: post #75
andylei wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> wind and solar subsidies > the government is picking a winner. Sometimes picking a winner is a good thing. Burning coal and oil pollutes air and exacerbates global warming. These are bad things. As a society, we should pay a little extra to avoid them. Wind and solar subsidies are probably less efficient than, say, a carbon tax, but probably better than nothing.

Except it stifles innovation in other sectors. There may be alternatives that are better but aren't subsidized which makes it harder for them to succeed.

> Except it stifles innovation in other sectors

this is intentional. the point is we want wind and solar to succeed because they have lower negative externalities. the competing sectors we want to not succeed are things like oil and coal. its a pretty reasonable assumption to make that even with innovations that increase the pollution efficiency of coal and oil, its still not going to be as good as solar and wind.

of course, you might also be referring to alternative sectors like hydroelectric or nuclear or whatever. in that case, i agree with you. that's why a carbon tax is better than subsidies.

Re: Uber Boston Has Been Served

#138

Post by GFischer »

calciphus wrote: post #40
tptacek wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two reasons (neither dispositive): (i) The cities in which Uber operates usually have dysfunctional cab systems. San Francisco, for instance, is notoriously underserved. (ii) Much of the regulatory overhead in running a cab/livery service really is an artifact of top-down market controls from the turn of the last century that have been exploited to lock the market to a privileged few operators.

Imagine for a moment you got into a taxi and instead of the meter, he had an hour-glass with tick marks on the side and a bike odometer. Would you feel secure about what you're being charged? Most of the Uber drivers use iPhones, which (especially the older models) have notoriously bad GPS. If it skips off to the wrong street for a few blocks and adds 1/4 mile to my trip, and I don't notice by staring at his screen,…

Have you taken a taxi outside the U.S. ? :) . In Peru, you had to haggle how much you wish to pay for your ride.

http://goperu.about.com/od/gettingaroundperu/qt/Taxis-In-Per...

"Taxi Prices in Peru

Peruvian taxis don't run on meters, so you need to arrange a price with the driver before accepting the ride. Taxi drivers usually try to overcharge, especially when confronted by a foreign tourist. If you have no idea how much the fare should be, try reducing the driver's price by a small amount (if the driver says 12 nuevos soles, offer 10). It's always a good idea to ask someone beforehand, such as a hotel receptionist, how much a taxi to your destination should cost."

Re: Uber Boston Has Been Served

#139

Post by neilk »

rprasad wrote: post #132
neilk wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was in the NYTimes a few weeks ago: "So you think you can be a hair braider?" Not without two years of cosmetology school, which should set you back $16,000. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/17/magazine/so-you-think-you-... Nobody's arguing that people who perform a service shouldn't have an awareness of basic hygiene, and that could definitely be regulated... but requiring $16K up front is just rent-seeking. Not…

The purpose of the education and testing requirement for cosmetologists and barbers is not an arbitrary financial hurdle; it is a legitimate safety function of the government. These people will be using very sharp tools on your head . Tools which may draw blood, or worse. The education and testing requirement ensures that such people know how to safely use those tools across a wide variety of situations (i.e., reques…

Nicely argued, but you are responding to a straw man position (that government has no role in regulating cosmetic services) nor did you read the article (which points out that licenses are cheaper in neighboring states, but not Utah.)
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