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Driverless semis have started running regular longhaul routes

cnn.com

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Re: Driverless semis have started running regular longhaul routes

#211

Post by dylan604 »

throwaway48476 wrote: post #176
potato3732842 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Truckers are compelled to work without sleep to finish routes with tight deadlines. This is statement is somewhere between ignorant and an outright lie. There's a bunch of rules governing how many hours truckers can work. And those regulations are mostly followed. And when they're not it's typically some local outfit delivering fuel or groceries, not the long haul mega fleets https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/ho…

That's the problem. The human alertness cycle can't be forced to align with the ELT logged time schedule. Truckers used to drive longer when they felt awake and choose their own rest times as long as it averaged out.

How is this different from regulations for airline pilots requiring minimum downtime between flights? Or any other industry that requires minimum turn times. I've worked for feature film shoots that had to alter shoot schedules because days went long and the minimum required turn time forced the next day's call time to be pushed. It's always fun switching from a day to night schedule, and these minimum turn times are a god send

Re: Driverless semis have started running regular longhaul routes

#212

Post by kerkeslager »

potato3732842 wrote: post #169
echelon wrote: post #127

Autonomous trucks will be fantastic. Truckers are compelled to work without sleep to finish routes with tight deadlines. It creates a lot of danger on the highway. It feels like autonomous vehicles could become one of America's superpowers. We have so many miles of road and interstate highway. Autonomous vehicles could double down on that strength and flip the underinvestment in passenger rail on its head, making it…

>Truckers are compelled to work without sleep to finish routes with tight deadlines. This is statement is somewhere between ignorant and an outright lie. There's a bunch of rules governing how many hours truckers can work. And those regulations are mostly followed. And when they're not it's typically some local outfit delivering fuel or groceries, not the long haul mega fleets https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/ho…

> There's a bunch of rules governing how many hours truckers can work.

True!

> And those regulations are mostly followed.

Very false, at least as of 5 years ago.

I worked with trucker biometric data which for a large company which runs trucks all over North America.

The company itself keeps its hands clean: they required drivers to keep strict manual logs and have strict rules about compliance with regulation. But at every step of the way, the incentives are for drivers to lie in these logs. Particularly, per-mile pay incentivizes driving a lot of miles at times when there's less traffic on the road (night). If your truck isn't moving, you aren't getting paid, and drivers want to get back to their families and hobbies, so they minimize time spent sleeping in their truck in a random location. Additionally, missed deadlines can significantly impact your pay, and deadlines are set at levels which cut very close to regulation, so that any delays force drivers to break regulation to meet the deadline.

Biometric data shows flagrant violations of regulation, which we can't share with anyone (including the company), because it's medical data protected under HIPAA. The manual logs are corroborated by an electronic black box on each truck, but these logs aren't checked unless something goes wrong, at which point the company can use to show the trucker was in violation of their stated policies to reduce liability.

I've only seen data from one company (which I cannot name due to non-disclosure) but it's my understanding that most of the company's driver incentives are structured similarly to the reputable parts of the trucking industry. Other companies have mile quotas (or inversely, mile bonuses) which further incentivize lying in logs. There are extremely exploitative owner/operator outfits which force drivers to work desperately to pay off their trucks, likely resulting in worse violations.

So sure, on paper, the letter of the regulations are followed, but that's definitely not what's happening on the road.

> And when they're not it's typically some local outfit delivering fuel or groceries, not the long haul mega fleets

Even if there were true (which it isn't), a head on collision with a sleeping local fuel delivery driver is just as deadly as a head on collision with a long haul trucker. This is irrelevant.

Re: Driverless semis have started running regular longhaul routes

#213

Post by cycomanic »

robocat wrote: post #66
krapp wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me know where you can find a competent government not currently trying to burn down its own consumer-based economy with tariffs and xenophobia and which doesn't consider trains a communist plot. And whether they take American passports.

I'm not sure governments learn by seeing the mistakes of other governments. But consecutive New Zealand governments have made some big mistakes. Capitalist party sold the national rail to an Australian company because rail was inefficient and costing a ton. Privately run cut back staff significantly. A few years later the story was that that was failing privately run, so the socialist party bought it back at exhorbit…

The problem about New Zealand is that they hate investing in infrastructure and everyone loves the kiwi myth of the number 8 wire which means they just build provisional solution on top of provisional solution. The example of the ferries is a good one, the cost blow out was because they needed to build a new dock in Wellington. So instead of just living with the fact that yes building infrastructure as become expensive in a country which has seen a massive building boom (like many other places), the new Conservative government decides to cancel the ferry order without any alternative in place, and now the most important connection of the country is running on failing ferries which are more than 25 years old (there have been several incidents in the last couple of years where they were drifting powerless), and (especially considering the massive penalty for cancelling the contract) the new ferries will be just as expensive as the cancelled ones just being much smaller (the old contract was actually signed at quite advantageous economic times) and arriving much later.

This is certainly not an example of rail not working. Trucks on the road are a massive disaster as well. Most roads are single lane, so it's not uncommon to be stuck behind trucks for long stretches, this is especially annoying considering that many roads are very windy and truck speed up when coming to passing lanes.

Re: Driverless semis have started running regular longhaul routes

#214

Post by simoncion »

kgwxd wrote: post #161
yunwal wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would be a better indicator to you than 4 years of driving records?

110% transparency. We have no clue how they actually tested, how they cheated, what they're lying about, and all the other nefarious BS corporations constantly pull. A single person could turn all of these things into Decepticon in seconds. We need to know that that is intentionally made impossible, and no one will ever make it possible in secret. It could give someone the power of a global army.

> A single person could turn all of these things into Decepticon in seconds. ... It could give someone the power of a global army.

We're talking about an ordinary semi truck with attached trailer and a bevy of sensors. This isn't a war machine. The worst thing that can happen here is the same thing that can happen with an inattentive or exhausted driver.

Re: Driverless semis have started running regular longhaul routes

#215

Post by TrainedMonkey »

sephamorr wrote: post #113
o11c wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with railroad is exactly the other side of this: that you can't trivially and automatically detach a single car at any point. I know businesses that literally have an old railroad branch line right up to their door, but they can't actually order anything meaningful via rail. The existing rail system has at least the following constraints: * Uses steel-on-steel friction, rather than rubber-on-rock. Cars th…

My previous company, Parallel Systems is working on this. The solution looks a lot like trucks on rail: individual locomotion, so you get the flexibility of trucking, but the energy efficiency and automation ease of rail. With modern braking, you can stop a Parallel vehicle about as fast as a truck. There's a ton of rail that's underutilized, particularly in Metro areas, so you almost get a fresh highway for free. Ve…

Always upvote electric trains!

Re: Driverless semis have started running regular longhaul routes

#216

Post by simoncion »

A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 wrote: post #158
yunwal wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would be a better indicator to you than 4 years of driving records?

"In four years of practice hauls the trucks’ technology has delivered over 10,000 customer loads. As of Thursday, the company’s self-driving tech has completed over 1,200 miles without a human in the truck." It would be a start, but we don't seem to have that. Or, at least, the article does not have them. What we do have is a press release and an indication that the load was delivered. No indication of the issues tha…

> What we do have is a press release and an indication that the load was delivered.

I like how you didn't seem to notice that there are 1,460 days in four years.

I get the impression that ten semi-truck hauls a day is a lot. If you hit someone (or wreck the truck) you're not going to make your next haul... you're going to be talking to the cops and/or having a wrecker drag you back home.

Re: Driverless semis have started running regular longhaul routes

#217

Post by throwaway48476 »

dylan604 wrote: post #211
throwaway48476 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the problem. The human alertness cycle can't be forced to align with the ELT logged time schedule. Truckers used to drive longer when they felt awake and choose their own rest times as long as it averaged out.

How is this different from regulations for airline pilots requiring minimum downtime between flights? Or any other industry that requires minimum turn times. I've worked for feature film shoots that had to alter shoot schedules because days went long and the minimum required turn time forced the next day's call time to be pushed. It's always fun switching from a day to night schedule, and these minimum turn times are…

Film industry is likely a union rule not a federal one.

Aviation the limits are much stricter than trucking.

Re: Driverless semis have started running regular longhaul routes

#218

Post by sunflowerfly »

supportengineer wrote: post #87

In America, we are willing to do anything to avoid expanding or upgrading our rail infrastructure.

Create a hub and spoke system with automated container sorting at the hubs. Basically build a national rail distribution system that works like a modern distribution warehouse. Long haul trucking should not exist.

Re: Driverless semis have started running regular longhaul routes

#219

Post by Spooky23 »

mmooss wrote: post #191
Spooky23 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My brother is in this business. There’s overlapping jurisdictions that shady operators leverage hard to squeeze more out of people and equipment. Chinatown busses are the perfect example, they’d run routes designed to avoid federal jurisdiction and adopt routes and schedules to avoid weigh stations and routine inspection. Busses were unsafe and drivers unlicensed in many cases. Most were owned by Chinese mafia organi…

> The federal motor carrier safety administration had a robust, science based program to improve safety and improve conditions in most scenarios. My understanding is that 80% of the staff was fired and resigned When was that? And is there anything public we can read about these things?

Google motor carrier safety. University of Colorado is one of the bigger academic partners.

Re: Driverless semis have started running regular longhaul routes

#220

Post by deadbabe »

supportengineer wrote: post #87

In America, we are willing to do anything to avoid expanding or upgrading our rail infrastructure.

This is a good thing IMO, it’s too late to play catch up with rail infrastructure, we should just skip to the next big thing and let the rest of the world have their antiquated rail structures.
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