Are there problems that actually occur AT the defcon conference? Sounds like most of the anecdotes are from parties, where alcohol is a factor. Is defcon a conference or a party?
Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
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Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
#12I wasn't sure what to think of the red/yellow cards when I first heard about them, but the suggestion that it should be bystanders them giving out is awesome. Everything we know about human psychology suggests that a disapproving peer group is a strong behavioral deterrent.
Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
#13Honest question: As an observer, when should I feel comfortable interjecting? Things like "if the afflicted party looks uncomfortable" seems rather vague, and just because I am offended doesn't mean the person receiving it is offended (I've known this to be the case). I'm honestly interested in knowing the best way to gauge when I should act without insulting people that are offended. I'm referring to the non-obvious…
Approaching strangers can be difficult or awkward but here's a clear step at least:
Step in when it's one of your friends doing the harassing. Let them know they're being immature and inappropriate. People respond a lot more when it's someone in their peer group.
I'm sure a lot of people have let a lot of stuff like the above slide because "Oh that's just FooBar. He's always like that".
Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
#14Sexual Harassment is a problem, but I am not convinced that a card system is the way to solve it. If a woman is being a jerk at a conference does that mean I can card her? I was just reading of a top official (a women)in the US government who is accused of sexual harassment of her subordinates. Any sort of rules that favor one sex over another will be used to do just that. I am a big fan of codes of conduct at conferences. If someone violates them (be male or female) they are tossed out, period.
Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
#15Not specific to hacker culture, but I always felt there was a bit of a double standard when it comes to alpha male behavior. Women are attracted to aggressive men. Women like men who take charge. Women like men who are the initiators. Now obviously there is a line that crosses over into sexual harassment, but the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who succeed in sexual pursuits most often. It's alm…
Sure, at a night club... maybe.
But not at a professional conference.
Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
#16Not specific to hacker culture, but I always felt there was a bit of a double standard when it comes to alpha male behavior. Women are attracted to aggressive men. Women like men who take charge. Women like men who are the initiators. Now obviously there is a line that crosses over into sexual harassment, but the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who succeed in sexual pursuits most often. It's alm…
Why not "aggressively" try to pay genuine attention, or make her laugh? Yes, be bold if you like someone, sure. And don't suck up too much either, nobody likes that, male or female.
Showing someone you like them and then gauging their reaction takes balls -- but showing someone you like them, and then ignoring their rejection, is rather weak. Needy even. That those brutes delude themselves into thinking that's top notch alpha male behaviour is one thing -- but if you're shy yourself, don't buy into it. Some women like assholes; most don't. Being bold and maybe even cheeky is one thing, but only the weak seek outright dominance. (Which goes for females who like to play games, too; same cause, different course of action).
Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
#17Not specific to hacker culture, but I always felt there was a bit of a double standard when it comes to alpha male behavior. Women are attracted to aggressive men. Women like men who take charge. Women like men who are the initiators. Now obviously there is a line that crosses over into sexual harassment, but the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who succeed in sexual pursuits most often. It's alm…
Sometime it comes very close to being that when the girl is attracted to the guy, it's flirting, but when she isn't, it's creepy/sexual harassment. That's because it's a personal, relationship kind of thing. Your behavior depends partly on the other person. There is no single set of rules that will cover all people, all circumstances, all the time. (For "polite company" or formal gatherings there are of course protoc…
Absolutely. So you'd agree that what's over the line in one circumstance could be interpreted as harmless flirting in another. And that much of the time, the guy must guess where that line is and that he'll be wrong sometimes.
Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
#18Not specific to hacker culture, but I always felt there was a bit of a double standard when it comes to alpha male behavior. Women are attracted to aggressive men. Women like men who take charge. Women like men who are the initiators. Now obviously there is a line that crosses over into sexual harassment, but the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who succeed in sexual pursuits most often. It's alm…
it isn't like this, you're assessment is fallacious.
There's nothing wrong with flirting with women, if they aren't interested then they can be quite clear about it - the problem is that some peoples idea of flirting is creepy and borders on harassment.
Try not making sweeping statements about what women do and don't like, and work from there. PS, it's not all about sex.
Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
#19I think there is a real disconnect between what hackers think of their community and what it actually is.
We often claim to be one of the purest of meritocracies, since our primary interactions only allow us to interact with each other's work and emails/posts, but clearly we aren't quite as capable of this meritocracy as is commonly stated. I wonder how much differently these women are treated online as opposed to in person when interacting with the same people.
If the yellow-red card system does catch on, I would prefer to see the green card avoided. I don't know if it really adds anything to the system, and I worry that it would detract from people understanding what they did wrong. "I got a green card, but also a yellow card. I'm still good to women though, that second chick was just a crazy bitch." It seems like it gives people a way to justify their bad deeds with other good deeds.
However people attempt to do it, it would be lovely to see this kind of behavior weeded out, as it provides both a point of hypocrisy and isolation that benefits no one.
Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)
#20Not specific to hacker culture, but I always felt there was a bit of a double standard when it comes to alpha male behavior. Women are attracted to aggressive men. Women like men who take charge. Women like men who are the initiators. Now obviously there is a line that crosses over into sexual harassment, but the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who succeed in sexual pursuits most often. It's alm…
This is true, most women do like men who take charge. But I'm not sure if women who come to hacker conferences are looking forward to flirt with men. In that case it is unwanted attention. In any case when you are flirting with a girl, especially in tech events where they won't be expecting such a behavior, take charge but gauge the reaction and back off if she's getting uncomfortable.