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Libogc (Wii homebrew library) discovered to contain code stolen from RTEMS

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Re: Libogc (Wii homebrew library) discovered to contain code stolen from RTEMS

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Semantics... Try telling that to a lawyer. Not enforcing your exclusive privileges does not extinguish your rights. People don't lose the right to vote if the government refuses to enforce election fraud. You are wrong in the legal sense, and copyright is a very legal matter.

I think you are assuming that by "lose" I meant indefinitely, and for any and all future cases... but I explicitly defined what I meant, which was the cases where the rightsholder was made aware of an infringement, chose not to litigate, and then the statute expired, leading to a functional equivalence of losing the copyright in that one instance . I think a lawyer would appreciate the detail, and I don't think I am…

> it is possible to actually lose your own copyright.

You have so many caveats ipso facto. You did not qualify it at first.

Re: Libogc (Wii homebrew library) discovered to contain code stolen from RTEMS

#162
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The argument is that so far society at large seems to have decided that what bigtech has done with LLMs is not wrong. Everyone is happily using it, pretty much every company is touting their new "AI" features, and lawsuits haven't gained any traction. So if it's not wrong for an LLM, I'd argue it's not wrong for a human, either. Right, because if one wrong thing is allowed, we should allow... Other wrong things. Th…

> Right, because if one wrong thing is allowed, we should allow... Other wrong things. Unless you think LLMs deserve more rights than actual flesh and blood humans, yes. Either that or get bigtech to stop what they're doing, but we both know that's not going to happen. > Okay. Well I feel sympathy for the poor developers who put time into making a free open source tool that brought many people joy now having their wo…

> Unless you think LLMs deserve more rights than actual flesh and blood humans, yes. Either that or get bigtech to stop what they're doing, but we both know that's not going to happen.

> If LLMs get to do it, so do humans. If humans don't get to do it, then LLMs don't either. Society has embraced LLMs and bigtech is not going to give up their new toy, so it has to become okay for humans, even if you think this is unfortunate.

> Again, humans deserve more rights than machines, not less. So apparently, yes.

Man, you are fucking obsessed with LLMs. This incident predates the existence of LLMs, has nothing to do with LLMs, and plagiarism and ML training are two completely different issues. And, you keep acting like I am saying I think what happened with LLMs is fine, which I have never said at any point. I didn't say that what happened and is happening with LLMs is fine, only that it is a completely different thing that bears no relation to this whatsoever. Nobody mentioned LLMs. It's not a thing here. Stop talking about fucking LLMs.

> Yup, only serves to make the rich richer anyway.

The GPL is a great example of a copyright license that is explicitly not designed to make the rich richer.

Re: Libogc (Wii homebrew library) discovered to contain code stolen from RTEMS

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are assuming that by "lose" I meant indefinitely, and for any and all future cases... but I explicitly defined what I meant, which was the cases where the rightsholder was made aware of an infringement, chose not to litigate, and then the statute expired, leading to a functional equivalence of losing the copyright in that one instance . I think a lawyer would appreciate the detail, and I don't think I am…

> it is possible to actually lose your own copyright. You have so many caveats ipso facto . You did not qualify it at first.

yes you're right, I should have clarified in the beginning, that was my mistake

Re: Libogc (Wii homebrew library) discovered to contain code stolen from RTEMS

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I'm going to let 'jchw do it for me, because they are more patient than I would have been and make me thankful I didn't go down that route. I don't really want to engage with someone whose argument is "there's no harm because the harm is plagiarism and according to OpenAI plagiarism is OK".

> the harm is plagiarism How is plagiarism harmful outside of an academic setting? Is it illegal? Who is hurt by it? In what way? Does this supposed harm outweigh the benefit it brings to the rest of society? And, mostly unrelated, why are you okay with bigtech doing it, but not a mere human? Just admit you realized that you don't actually have an argument. It's a simple question, and you're not able to answer it. It…

I don't recall ever saying that plagarism by big tech was ok.

Re: Libogc (Wii homebrew library) discovered to contain code stolen from RTEMS

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copyright does apply to decompiled source code (it's a derivative work of the binary). However, reverse engineering is allowed explicitly (...in several countries, ask a local lawyer!) for the purpose of interoperability, and sometimes for certain kinds of research. In those cases, what would otherwise be cooyright infringement is permitted. If you're not doing it for those reasons (e.g. to attain exacting bug-for-bu…

To be clear, a derivative work is copyright of the one creating the derivative, not the original author. The question is whether creating the derivative work of that specific transformative nature is allowed. Unlike assets taken verbatim, this requires evaluating the exact instance. A binary decompilation is importantly not a simple translation, as that would be entirely unusable - rather, it is like creating bluepri…

I really do not know what you're trying to nitpick here, but note that if you create a not-original-enough derivative work (which is what is happening here), you will not have any copyright whatsoever. Neither you nor the original author.

Binary decompilation is also the textbook definition of a "simple translation". It is almost always done with a mathematical formula aka algorithm and the resulting program is not only identical in observable behavior to the original one, it is also identical in the non-observable behavior (I.e. bit by bit identical on-memory data structures). The chance that you can end up with such identical program without looking at the original one is zero for anything but the most trivial programs.

Licenses are also almost totally irrelevant (even in this context) and for most software they are only enforceable by copyright anyway (e.g. the temporary on memory copies to load the program).

I do not understand what to see here that even has a hint of originality. This is why clean room is super important, even if not strictly necessary: it goes a long way to convince that the implementations do not come from the same source even if they are related.

Re: Libogc (Wii homebrew library) discovered to contain code stolen from RTEMS

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the original authors did not write the decompiled source This isn't anything new or unique to programming. In the same way if I were to transcribe a movie (let's say it's a silent movie) to a script, it would still be that movie. Or if I were to translate a book into Klingon . Or even do a cover song of "Beat It" entirely with throat singing. Copyright would still apply.

The method of operation is not protected by copyright. You can write a program that works just like the proprietary software.

Yeah, good luck explaining to any judge that by chance you wrote a program that oh it hust happens to be identical to a copyrighted one. It even loads the same data files and save files.

Re: Libogc (Wii homebrew library) discovered to contain code stolen from RTEMS

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The power of a legal obligation like the GPL lies in its ability to bind equally people you like and people you don't; and in contrast to popular belief, social attitudes (like yours) do influence the courtrooms' disposition towards such laws—they certainly influence the lawmakers passing amendments and clarifications. If we, the relevant community, do not think much of GPL violations when they hurt people we dislike…

very noble, but when your enemies are the harlem globetrotters, firm commitment to principles just makes you the washington generals

[deleted]

Re: Libogc (Wii homebrew library) discovered to contain code stolen from RTEMS

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The method of operation is not protected by copyright. You can write a program that works just like the proprietary software.

Yeah, good luck explaining to any judge that by chance you wrote a program that oh it hust happens to be identical to a copyrighted one. It even loads the same data files and save files.

Two programs can work the same way and still be distinct, independently developed works. This is especially true of programs that have to work in certain ways in order to be compatible.

Game companies back then had a "trademark security system". Their hardware wouldn't execute your software unless you wrote the company's name to some memory location somewhere. If you did that and you didn't have a license, they'd sue you for trademark infringement.

Well it went to court and judges found that not only was this "infringement" fair, it was the trademark holders themselves who were at fault for creating this stupid system where competitors had to infringe their trademarks in order to create interoperable software.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_v._Accolade

> Accolade's decompilation of the Sega software constituted fair use.

> the use of the software was non-exploitative, despite being commercial

> the trademark infringement, being required by the TMSS for a Genesis game to run on the system, was inadvertently triggered by a fair use act and the fault of Sega for causing false labeling

Such was the wonderful world before the DMCA and its criminalization of "circumvention".

The hard part isn't explaining things to judges, it's coming up with the fortunes necessary to pay lawyers to do it. That's why the big corporations have the advantage. They can afford to be wrong. In fact, it is literally their strategy to outlast their opponents in court by burning their money in legal fees. They can afford it, small companies can't and individuals will be literally bankrupted.

Re: Libogc (Wii homebrew library) discovered to contain code stolen from RTEMS

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, good luck explaining to any judge that by chance you wrote a program that oh it hust happens to be identical to a copyrighted one. It even loads the same data files and save files.

Two programs can work the same way and still be distinct, independently developed works. This is especially true of programs that have to work in certain ways in order to be compatible. Game companies back then had a "trademark security system". Their hardware wouldn't execute your software unless you wrote the company's name to some memory location somewhere. If you did that and you didn't have a license, they'd sue…

> Two programs can work the same way and still be distinct, independently developed works. This is especially true of programs that have to work in certain ways in order to be compatible.

This is like if a state lottery employee would claim "oh, but there are other recorded cases of people winning the lottery 2 times" to justify why he in particular won it 300 times in a row.

It is one thing for two similar implementations to appear from different sources (and a rather probable thing at that). What I said is that it is impossible for two _identical_ implementations to appear from two different sources, for anything but the most trivial of programs.

Again, a decompiled program will not only work the same way as the original in the observable external behavior, it will also be identical even in its internal behavior (state machines, and everything). If you even admit that were literally looking at the first implementation while you were implementing the second one, or worse, that in fact it is an automated translation of it.... how can you even start to justify having a legal case? What do you exactly think copyright is for?

> If you did that and you didn't have a license, they'd sue you for trademark infringement.

FYI, this is _precisely_ what is actually allowed by the interoperability clause, at least in the EU. i.e. this "nintendo logo" trick was pointless back then and it is definitely pointless now. In simple terms, when there is _no other way_ to interoperate you are allowed to _violate copyright_ (i.e. re-distribute possibly copyrighted material without permission) to the extent that is required to allow this interoperability. For example, if company X decides to develop an encrypted protocol with a "proprietary" encryption algorithm, you may be allowed to re-distribute a subset of company X's encryption code (incl. key material) in order to talk with company X's hardware. This is allowed, and in fact my previous company used to do this (with utmost care).

But it does NOT mean that you can now re-distribute ALL of company X's software, use the entire firmware of company X's devices to create your own copycats, create tools to help others violate company X's copyright, or anything like. There's no way to interpret this provision in a way that allows you to free lunch.

Also note that even in this case you still _cannot_ (legally) use a trademark (e.g. you can't show the USB TM logo in your product's box), but no judge in the world will argue that using a hash of a logo as an encryption key is "using" the trademark. Laws are written for humans, not machines.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_v._Accolade

You keep posting this link even though many people have already told you it really doesn't mean what you think. I'm not an expert in US law, but even I can imagine that this case didn't really allow Accolade from suddenly being able to re-distribute Sega games nor their decompiled Sega game code. At most, it allowed them to use the decompiled Sega game code to develop their own Sega-hardware-compatible games, something which (unsurprisingly) looks very familiar to what I was explaining above about how it works in the EU.

> Such was the wonderful world before the DMCA and its criminalization of "circumvention".

DMCA has very little to do with anything of this. You still cannot violate copyright even if there was nothing to circumvent.

> The hard part isn't explaining things to judges, it's coming up with the fortunes necessary to pay lawyers to do it. That's why the big corporations have the advantage.

Let me guess: you are one of those who believe big corporations will have a harder time if copyright is abolished.

Let me tell you what will happen: big corporations will immediately self-appropriate all software from "small" corporations. Almost all open source software will disappear as a result (know many FLOSS people who are happy releasing PD software? not even BSD people are -- they require attribution). And instead of getting the "oh all software is free world" that you expect, you will instead get a world of incredibly invasive DRM schemas, complicated and expensive hardware protection systems, and binary code guarded behind closed doors in big farms and you can never dream of executing outside corporate security eyes. Reverse engineering it will still be possible of course... but only if you have infinite resources, like those of another mega-corp, with an army of engineers at your disposal.

I know this because I have seen it -- this is the world of industrial "our entire million dollar business is basically one algorithm" CAD software, where your competitors do not really care about mortal nuisances such as copyright. What Sega, Nintendo, etc. do as DRM is basically just child's play so that piracy doesn't become too widespread, but nothing more.

So not only will the bigger fish still eat the smaller ones, you will not even have the courts to at least try to protect the medium size fish.

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