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Arch Linux to migrate to Systemd

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Re: Arch Linux to migrate to Systemd

#81
post #79
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...except that those things do still need to be re-implemented in every program that requires them, since most POSIXy programs are portable to more than just systems using systemd.

This being my primary problem with the current upheaval in Linux system organization. Its instigators have mostly made it clear that they consider everything not Linux (or possibly preferably not their favorite flavor thereof) to be obsolete - throwing portability out the window. Frankly, it's getting old.

I fail to see the problem. Either something is portable, or something is not. It is basically up to the developer.

If not being portable means way less time spent on development, then some people might choose that. Good for them.

Re: Arch Linux to migrate to Systemd

#82
In my biased opinion, once you have gotten over the learning curve, nothing beats daemontools for running services. It is a fantastic set of tools. Why some OS doesn't just embrace djbware I'll never understand. It compiles, smoothly, in seconds. (There's no need for distributing binaries.) And the chances of the author initiating lawsuits (as some Linux foundations are known to do), over something placed in the "public domain" are close to nil. He's got better things to do.

BSD's rc system is fine. Sometimes the scripts are too verbose. But the whole idea is the system is simple enough to understand that you can write your own scripts -- more concisely, if you wish. You don't need to read a book (e.g. Linux from Scratch), keep most things disabled by default and let the user turn stuff on as they need it.

I recently used Debian's live USB, the rescue version, for a little while and was amazed at how much stuff is turned on by default. I guess if you understand each and every choice that's been made for you it's OK. But if not, that approach is not very conducive to learning.

As for Apple, never mind all the XML fluff, good luck trying to understand what's going on behind the scenes with their computers anymore. They can't even manage to let you have an nsswitch.conf or equivalent.

Re: Arch Linux to migrate to Systemd

#83

Systemd takes a reliable, known, thoroughly debugged process (init, or various of its tweaks, including Ubuntu's upstart and Debian's insserv ), and converts booting from a deterministic, predictable process to one that's inherently unpredictable . And the stated objective? "To reduce boot times". The best way to reduce boot times is to not boot . The reason I reboot systems is to return them to a known good state (o…

> I'm also not much surprised that Red Hat, who've had such a historic problem with consistency and reliable dependency management within their packaging system (as compared to Debian/Ubuntu)

Yawn this again. Give an example please.

Re: Arch Linux to migrate to Systemd

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a daily laptop linux user, specifically Chakra Linux, http://chakra-linux.org/ . My wish list goes something like this: better wireless drivers, improved sleep/suspend/hibernate/resume, better power management, a better package manager, more up-to-date applications ... At the very, very bottom of that list -- the very last item, so far at the bottom of the list that it's in danger of falling off entirely -- is "f…

I'm a daily laptop linux user, and like you I know how to go a long time between reboots, so I can wait for my computer to start up. But forget about us, we're already converts, we don't matter. My grandfather (93 years old) is also a daily laptop linux user. When he presses that power button, that laptop better be booted and ready /yesterday/. And when he pushes it again, it better be off before he closes the lid. S…

That is really cool, both your grandfather using a Linux laptop and the boot time. Could you name a few components you used?

Re: Arch Linux to migrate to Systemd

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but shell scripts suck as a language for booting the system. You need to fork() and exec() for almost anything non-trivial, wasting precious CPU cycles in the progress. It looks like every Linux distro has its own way to manage boot scripts. And when they fail, you have no idea what happened. More importantly, init only handles starting and stopping of services. They don't manage services, like restarting…

I'm a daily laptop linux user, specifically Chakra Linux, http://chakra-linux.org/ . My wish list goes something like this: better wireless drivers, improved sleep/suspend/hibernate/resume, better power management, a better package manager, more up-to-date applications ... At the very, very bottom of that list -- the very last item, so far at the bottom of the list that it's in danger of falling off entirely -- is "f…

> My wish list goes something like this: better wireless drivers, improved sleep/suspend/hibernate/resume, better power management, a better package manager, more up-to-date applications ...

Use a different distro. None of these is a problem on a modern distro with reasonably modern hardware.

Re: Arch Linux to migrate to Systemd

#86

systemd is so obviously better than anything out there, I'm surprised there is any controversy. I've yet to see a valid complaint. "Poettoering sucks! PulseAudio!" That's not much of a technical argument against systemd, now is it? Pretty much everyone who complains about PulseAudio doesn't even know what it is; they just blame it when their audio doesn't work (usually for some unrelated reason). "It's not determinis…

It doesn't matter if systemd is written by Poettering or somebody else and it also doesn't mater that we don't have shellscripts any more. The real reason systemd should never be accepted is that I need programs to configure or talk to other programs. I even need a special program to read logs. This is the replacement of files with APIs. It feels like an enterprise class product which means it sucks all the fun out of computing.

Re: Arch Linux to migrate to Systemd

#87

Systemd takes a reliable, known, thoroughly debugged process (init, or various of its tweaks, including Ubuntu's upstart and Debian's insserv ), and converts booting from a deterministic, predictable process to one that's inherently unpredictable . And the stated objective? "To reduce boot times". The best way to reduce boot times is to not boot . The reason I reboot systems is to return them to a known good state (o…

developers boot more often than normal users

Re: Arch Linux to migrate to Systemd

#88
post #86

systemd is so obviously better than anything out there, I'm surprised there is any controversy. I've yet to see a valid complaint. "Poettoering sucks! PulseAudio!" That's not much of a technical argument against systemd, now is it? Pretty much everyone who complains about PulseAudio doesn't even know what it is; they just blame it when their audio doesn't work (usually for some unrelated reason). "It's not determinis…

It doesn't matter if systemd is written by Poettering or somebody else and it also doesn't mater that we don't have shellscripts any more. The real reason systemd should never be accepted is that I need programs to configure or talk to other programs. I even need a special program to read logs. This is the replacement of files with APIs. It feels like an enterprise class product which means it sucks all the fun out o…

Technically, init is also a program that launches other programs with its own special config file; it's just so much more limited than systemd that it has to hand startup over to scripts.

You don't need a special program to read logs; you can use whatever syslog daemon you want; you just don't have to. I really enjoy journal's ability to filter the logs precicely by all sorts of fields.

Actually, it's just the opposite of "relacement of files with APIs". A program's command-line is an API that you call using a program; that program is being replaced by a file.

I don't think you've actually used systemd if you claim that it "sucks the fun out of computing". I find the the "systemd-analyze" and "systemctl dot" tools to be a lot of fun.

Re: Arch Linux to migrate to Systemd

#89

systemd is so obviously better than anything out there, I'm surprised there is any controversy. I've yet to see a valid complaint. "Poettoering sucks! PulseAudio!" That's not much of a technical argument against systemd, now is it? Pretty much everyone who complains about PulseAudio doesn't even know what it is; they just blame it when their audio doesn't work (usually for some unrelated reason). "It's not determinis…

> I've yet to see a valid complaint.

Perhaps this is the main problem - the people pushing technology are not willing to acknowledge that people have different use cases to them. There are complaints, and they are valid - you just do not see them as valid, because they don't concern you.

Since you brought PulseAudio up, there's a very legitimate, common complain about it - latency. Yes, the people who care most about audio - the creators and audiophiles - are pushed aside as "not relevant," because Lennart is only interested in "appealing to the majority," not some minority fringe groups.

Really, the only reasonable solution for some people is Jack - but any hope of bridging the gap between Jack and Pulse is lost in a barrage of people pushing for a "single audio solution" - and prematurely claiming Pulse as the victor.

As a result, people write applications to only use PulseAudio, which are then unusable to someone using Jack (aside from hacks to make pulse act as a jack client). Professional audio software is still basically required to code for both Jack and Pulse/ALSA or whatnot - we're nowhere near a single audio solution.

But don't tell that to Poettering - because he is adamant that his solution is the only solution, and anyone who it doesn't suit is just playing with toys.

That's literally how he referred to Debain's choice to not push systemd because it targets multiple kernels, which systemd does not work with. (Which btw, Arch does too - although perhaps not the same people.)

Have you still yet to see a valid complaint? Of course kFreeBSD is not a valid complaint to you, because you've never used it, and never plan to - it's of no concern for you.

If we only cared about what's popular, Linux would not be what it is now - and you'd be on Windows. Linux is not the end-all solution to every problem anyway, as other lesser popular kernels have some great technology in them which is lacking in Linux. It's the only solution for Red Hat though - so you can see why they're happy to push such agenda. If you're not a Red Hat customer, your opinion is invalid.

Arch was built with a different mentality - the one of personal freedom to do what the hell you want with your desktop, not for the benefit of some company. You are free to use or reject any software you don't want.

Well, not any more. Pushing systemd on users breaks that mentality - because the choice is stripped from you. The choice is already there in Arch though - and has been for a while. If you want systemd, you can use it. If you don't want it, don't bother. Moving the other way is not really possible though - because if you build your system around systemd, you can't revert back (without taking the time to rewrite everything that depends on systemd.)

The dependency problem in itself is a complaint against systemd. Should udev users be forced to use systemd for example? Normally we would introduce another layer of abstraction to our code - such that we can share common code between systemd-udev and non-systemd-udev, and have a solution where everyone wins - the systemd users benefit from improvements in systemd integration, whilst everyone benefits from improvements to udev which aren't systemd dependent. This is programming 101.

Well, not if you're the package maintainer and have more political motives. Any proposal to introduce such a split with common code will probably be met with: NO, we're not interested - It's too much work - It's pointless supporting non-systemd - Fork it.

A fork it will be - and because the fork will be much less popular - it will obviously be a toy.

Just to be clear - I'm not against systemd and Pulse from a technical point of view, and I can very clearly see the advantages they have over alternatives, for linux. I'm not really against fragmentation either.

What I am against though, is the politics of it. The constant pushing of systemd down everyone's throat like it's a fucking panacea. One day saying "don't use if if you don't want," and the next blogging "you're fucking idiots for not using it." (Lennart's approach to Ubuntu.)

Re: Arch Linux to migrate to Systemd

#90
post #81
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This being my primary problem with the current upheaval in Linux system organization. Its instigators have mostly made it clear that they consider everything not Linux (or possibly preferably not their favorite flavor thereof) to be obsolete - throwing portability out the window. Frankly, it's getting old.

I fail to see the problem. Either something is portable, or something is not. It is basically up to the developer. If not being portable means way less time spent on development, then some people might choose that. Good for them.

Yeah, but then when developers in other OS besides GNU/Linux take the same attitude, they get bashed to death for not caring about portable software.
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