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Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

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Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#211

Post by RandomLensman »

constantcrying wrote: post #143
andrepd wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In a single semester of university I learned more than in 12 years of school. You keep saying this but I have a hard time believing this is true; in fact I'm not even sure what "more" means (objectively) in this context. Let's see, in the 12 years of schooling you've learned at the very least: how to read and write, how to interpret texts, how to read literature, how to compose an essay, how to speak, read, and wri…

In school I spend 8 hours listening to some teacher or playing silly learning games and did some busywork as homework. I never learned for any test or found any of the material particularly interesting. In university I actually had to study, take notes, research the subject, study for many hours, etc. >a ton of mathematics from basic arithmetic to I guess something like calculus and trigonometry and algebra and some…

Seems experiences vary: For me, the first year of university mathematics was to a large extent a continuation or even what was covered in school (sets, axioms, proofs etc were covered in school). That said, that wasn't the case for everyone as far as I could tell.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#212

Post by ndr42 »

makeitdouble wrote: post #148
ndr42 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not think kids and everybody else are standing a chance against all the money that is thrown at making and keeping them addicted. So I fear if we do not want them to be addicted we have to prohibit things (it does not need to be smartphones, it could be mechanisms on these devices).

Prohibition didn't work for booze, doesn't work for drugs. Why would you be expecting better results for this ?

If you would like to prohibit e.g. gambling mechanisms in games or social media you need a legal framework and then you investigate and fine the firms that don't adhere to the rules. This works very well in the EU as seen by the example of apple and facebook last week. It's not perfect but what is?

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#213

Post by ale42 »

ecshafer wrote: post #179
RHSeeger wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My daughter brings her phone to school with her - If he bus doesn't show up, she can call and ask us to come drive her to school - If she wants to go somewhere after school, she can call us and let us know she won't be home at her normal time - If she forgot something at home, she can call and ask us to bring it - etc, etc, etc There's a ton of reasons for her to have her phone on her. Enough so that, when she gets p…

All of those reasons can be solved with her using a public phone. My school growing up had a phone in the hallway by the main office for those reasons.

Here around public phones are gone since long, even inside schools. However, mobile phones that just do calls and SMS are still a thing. And anyway, the Finnish law is not preventing any of the use cases you mentioned as far as I understand it.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#214

Post by shayway »

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #138

I deplore the fact that schools need to resort to banning phones. When I was younger I imagined a world in which computing devices would be a boon to (young) people everywhere. But many apps appear to be detrimental to people's mental health, both young and old. Possibly this can be changed. Maybe separate app stores are a solution (think f-droid)? Or maybe we need to start looking a lot harder at apps that might act…

Smartphones were just starting to be common right around the time I hit middle and high school. Teachers let us use them whenever we wanted, more or less, but if there was something we were supposed to be doing, we were only allowed to use them for educational purposes.

We were often encouraged to use them, in fact. If there was ever a question someone asked that the teachers couldn't answer, or they heard an argument between students about something that could be solved by looking up hard data, they would invite us to take out our phones and look it up. One of the teachers would occasionally make little websites and apps related to whatever we were learning at the time. Sometimes we were shown interesting blog posts, educational youtube videos (before it was an industry), personal sites from people who make things. It was reinforced again and again that they were for discovery first, creation second, and anything else third.

I feel very lucky for that to be how I learned to interact with them. The fact that we have magic machines that can answer any question in our pocket, that can take photos and connect us to people and teach us languages, yet we've corrupted them to the point that people are willingly giving them up and banning them from educational settings, is one of the greatest failings of modern society in my view. Or rather, an indication of even deeper and more troubling problems.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#215

Post by poincaredisk »

constantcrying wrote: post #143
andrepd wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In a single semester of university I learned more than in 12 years of school. You keep saying this but I have a hard time believing this is true; in fact I'm not even sure what "more" means (objectively) in this context. Let's see, in the 12 years of schooling you've learned at the very least: how to read and write, how to interpret texts, how to read literature, how to compose an essay, how to speak, read, and wri…

In school I spend 8 hours listening to some teacher or playing silly learning games and did some busywork as homework. I never learned for any test or found any of the material particularly interesting. In university I actually had to study, take notes, research the subject, study for many hours, etc. >a ton of mathematics from basic arithmetic to I guess something like calculus and trigonometry and algebra and some…

You're either not arguing in good faith, have an unusual definition of "more", or hate school so much that it clouds your judgement.

Do you honestly believe that is you were sent to University (or some other educational institution) with absolutely zero school knowledge, not even literacy and grade school math, you would be able to learn everything you learned at school in less than one semester?

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#216

Post by chithanh »

Gormo wrote: post #196
nabla9 wrote: post #150

It had to be a law because children are people in Finland and most Nordic countries with rights that adults just can't take away. Current legislation allows the teacher to tell a student to put their phone away in a pocket or backpack, for example, where it will not be a distraction. The use of phones during breaks cannot be completely banned, as students have fundamental rights. The Constitution guarantees everyone…

> It had to be a law because children are people in Finland and most Nordic countries with rights that adults just can't take away. It's a strange concept to hold that there are rights that can't be taken away, but then take them away merely by passing legislation.

The keyword here is just.

They cannot simply order children to comply, there has to be same legal basis like there has to be for ordering an adult to comply.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#217

Post by constantcrying »

fsloth wrote: post #174
constantcrying wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Child care? This is legally required school attendance for under 18 year olds. Most school days are way shorter than that. The curriculum seems to keep my kids intellectually engaged. Commenting as a finn.

[flagged]

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#218

Post by eptcyka »

Gormo wrote: post #196
nabla9 wrote: post #150

It had to be a law because children are people in Finland and most Nordic countries with rights that adults just can't take away. Current legislation allows the teacher to tell a student to put their phone away in a pocket or backpack, for example, where it will not be a distraction. The use of phones during breaks cannot be completely banned, as students have fundamental rights. The Constitution guarantees everyone…

> It had to be a law because children are people in Finland and most Nordic countries with rights that adults just can't take away. It's a strange concept to hold that there are rights that can't be taken away, but then take them away merely by passing legislation.

You have the right to get intoxicated, you possibly have the privilege to drive a car if you are licensed. It’s quite the shame that these shmucks legislated against doing both at the same time.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#219

Post by CivBase »

lupusreal wrote: post #2

Where they not already? In America they started off banned as soon as kids started getting them in the early 00s, but then some years later the bans became unenforced or even undone because, apparently, parents said that their kids needed phones because school shooters (which is a dumb argument.) But that shouldn't apply in Finland at all.

> parents said that their kids needed phones because school shooters (which is a dumb argument.)

It really is a dumb argument. Your primary concern in a school shooting should be getting out safely not messing around with your phone. One more 911 call won't make police any more effective. The phone isn't making you any safer. If anything, it's a distraction putting you in danger. Once you've made it to safety, you won't have any trouble contacting your parents whether or not you have a smartphone.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#220

Post by anhner »

Gormo wrote: post #196
nabla9 wrote: post #150

It had to be a law because children are people in Finland and most Nordic countries with rights that adults just can't take away. Current legislation allows the teacher to tell a student to put their phone away in a pocket or backpack, for example, where it will not be a distraction. The use of phones during breaks cannot be completely banned, as students have fundamental rights. The Constitution guarantees everyone…

> It had to be a law because children are people in Finland and most Nordic countries with rights that adults just can't take away. It's a strange concept to hold that there are rights that can't be taken away, but then take them away merely by passing legislation.

Those rights can't be taken away... without existing legislation.

There are many rights that can be taken away, freedom of movement for example in the case of prisoners, but you need laws in order to not make that taking away a crime itself. You can't just apprehend and throw someone in your basement because they stole something from you.

Same thing with children's phones, a teacher can't just take away the phone because they didn't have the authority before.

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