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Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

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Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#101

Post by doublerabbit »

xnorswap wrote: post #93
closewith wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trust is by far most often given and earned (or lost) post facto. In fact, that's an essential characteristic of a society. > Depends on what. I can't even trust the 40 year developers in my team at work. "Hacky if foreach loop will fix later" Whenever people make statements like this, I always wonder what their peers think of them. This dismissive attitude is so off-putting.

People who make statements like that are the kind of people you dread will pick up your pull request. You just know you're going to go from maybe spending an hour cleaning up some suggestions to a 3-day philosophical battle to get them to a point where they deign to accept your PR.

Not at all. If the code is decent and shows effort I have no problem. If it's sloppy it shite code.

I really don't have time to care about what my peers think of me. It's work. I don't want to communicate with them outside work. Work is just another mind space that stays at work. I am strict when it comes to code, I expect the same.

I want working maintainable code to enable me to do my job. If people dread submitting a PR because they can't write code with effort, good. I like my ships built strong not weak.

If they fix their problem, good. Trust given, more than happy to salute however time and time they've proven to me they don't.

These developers have proven to me they won't. These are developers who are those who do not fix the issuing code and will just move on to the next problem hacking it to make it work.

If you've never worked with such, then lucky. If this sting for you, time to put more effort in to your work.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#102

Post by [deleted] »

graemep wrote: post #47
thomassmith65 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently the author's grade school was on the moon? At grade school, the rest of us learned: to read and write, a little arithmetic, some biology, some physics, some history, maybe a second language, and much more. What a blessing it would be, as an adult, to have free access to a tutor for such a variety of courses. The point of school is to grow up not to be an ignoramus.

That is very little relative to the amount of time spent. School is very inefficient in terms of the student time spent to learn. It optimises for minimising teacher time and other costs. > What a blessing it would be, as an adult, to have free access to a tutor for such a variety of courses. You have paid access. Do you value it enough to pay?

[deleted]

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#103

Post by _Algernon_ »

FinnLobsien wrote: post #36
geremiiah wrote: post #29

Is it possible to fight Internet addiction without banning stuff? While it helps to ban smartphones during school, it won't stop these kids from logging on for 5 to 7 hrs after school. We need to find ways to make people (not just kids) more resilient to Internet addiction without resorting to widespread bans, which are both hard to implement, unlikely to keep people away long term and dangerous for other reasons.

I think you're right in a way because if school wants to prepare kids for work, then they'll have to get competent with tech. But at the same time, I think banning smartphones is perfectly fine because you can still use computers and stuff. It's not like they're going back to quills and ink. Smartphones fry your attention span and enable bullying. And if parents want to have emergency contact, you can always have a s…

>I think you're right in a way because if school wants to prepare kids for work, then they'll have to get competent with tech.

They are failing spectacularly on that front anyways. You don't learn useful skills by being handed a remotely administered tablet or Chromebook, which is what schools provide.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#104

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

GuB-42 wrote: post #50
PeterStuer wrote: post #3

If the goal of school is to develop children into young adults with good reasoning and analytical skills, a basic wholesome world and social model and some practical skills and basic physique, smartphones seem to contribute little and distract a lot from those aims.

The thing is: smartphones exist. The young adults these children will become will live in a world where smartphones are an essential part of their life. Using a smartphone is a practical skill. That's why I don't think banning smartphones is the best idea. It is probably better than unrestricted access, but I feel that school should teach how to use them well instead. It is a bit like with calculators, there are clas…

You know I used to think this but my cousins were raised extremely strict on phones and media consumption and today they're successful and well-adjusted. They didn't binge and lack self control when they became adults.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#105

Post by constantcrying »

messe wrote: post #83
constantcrying wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think I am "against learning"? I am saying that school is terrible at teaching . If the goal of schooling is that students learn then the school system I was in was a total failure. The moment I entered university I learned much more and much faster.

> The moment I entered university I learned much more and much faster. Is it not possible that schooling prepared you for this and enabled you to learn much more and faster?

No. It is not possible.

Why couldn't the school have prepared me for that when I was 16? Why does preparation take precisely 12 years and only then I can really learn anything.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#106

Post by [deleted] »

xnorswap wrote: post #93
closewith wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trust is by far most often given and earned (or lost) post facto. In fact, that's an essential characteristic of a society. > Depends on what. I can't even trust the 40 year developers in my team at work. "Hacky if foreach loop will fix later" Whenever people make statements like this, I always wonder what their peers think of them. This dismissive attitude is so off-putting.

People who make statements like that are the kind of people you dread will pick up your pull request. You just know you're going to go from maybe spending an hour cleaning up some suggestions to a 3-day philosophical battle to get them to a point where they deign to accept your PR.

[deleted]

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#107

Post by ndr42 »

constantcrying wrote: post #74
ndr42 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read the same comment from you as a response to three different comments. I will just answer here: "There is substantial evidence to suggest that education influences intelligence.[3]" (From Wikipedia) [3] Baltes, P., & Reinert, G. (1969). Cohort effects in cognitive development in children as revealed by cross sectional sequences. Developmental Psychology, 1, 169-177.

Why do you think I am "against learning"? I am saying that school is terrible at teaching . If the goal of schooling is that students learn then the school system I was in was a total failure. The moment I entered university I learned much more and much faster.

I'd suggest not making it so black and white ("school does nothing", "total failure"), there is room for a bit of nuance.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#108

Post by Ekaros »

bnegreve wrote: post #8
constantcrying wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that the aim of schools? It certainly did not appear to me that way, here in Germany. There was a lot of time spend sitting in a room and "learning", yet I basically learned nothing. For the other things you described I do not think they were ever considered. All around school was a giant waste of time.

Surely reading/writing are useful skills that most people did not have before school was mandatory.

They did. Well at least officially. Being able to read was needed if you wanted to get married.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#109

Post by js8 »

cudder wrote: post #91
markvdb wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is about Finland. They have a rather well-reputed school system that delivers in both areas.

At least used to. Last few years Finland's PISA scores as measured by the OECD have plummeted and now they are just a bit above average but nowhere near what they used to be.

What do you think are the factors that caused this fall?

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#110

Post by threetonesun »

_Algernon_ wrote: post #103
FinnLobsien wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're right in a way because if school wants to prepare kids for work, then they'll have to get competent with tech. But at the same time, I think banning smartphones is perfectly fine because you can still use computers and stuff. It's not like they're going back to quills and ink. Smartphones fry your attention span and enable bullying. And if parents want to have emergency contact, you can always have a s…

>I think you're right in a way because if school wants to prepare kids for work, then they'll have to get competent with tech. They are failing spectacularly on that front anyways. You don't learn useful skills by being handed a remotely administered tablet or Chromebook, which is what schools provide.

Growing up we had computer class in school, where we did BASIC programming and worked on typing, and this wasn't a particularly good school system. Moving towards "you'll learn computers and typing by having them in your face all the time" feels like a considerable regression in both computer and general skills.
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