Earlier quoted context omitted.
Imagine for a moment you got into a taxi and instead of the meter, he had an hour-glass with tick marks on the side and a bike odometer. Would you feel secure about what you're being charged? Most of the Uber drivers use iPhones, which (especially the older models) have notoriously bad GPS. If it skips off to the wrong street for a few blocks and adds 1/4 mile to my trip, and I don't notice by staring at his screen,…
Phone-based GPS, really?! They probably should be taken to task by weights and measures. But why is Uber even metering the trip distance? If they incorporated the destination address to the booking, they could calculate an exact price based on time of day/projected congestion/etc. Then they'd have even better consumer protection than a taxi cab (where the driver still has an incentive to go a more expensive route).
Uber Boston Has Been Served
101–110 of 139 posts
Re: Uber Boston Has Been Served
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
The most ridiculous example of this that I've seen is that some states require a license for the practice of interior design . Louisiana comes to mind but I believe there are others. It's really an example of the phenomenon that a small group of dedicated individuals with a vested interest in an outcome are often able to overcome a much larger group that has a small, diffuse, or unknown interest in the opposite outco…
This was in the NYTimes a few weeks ago: "So you think you can be a hair braider?" Not without two years of cosmetology school, which should set you back $16,000. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/17/magazine/so-you-think-you-... Nobody's arguing that people who perform a service shouldn't have an awareness of basic hygiene, and that could definitely be regulated... but requiring $16K up front is just rent-seeking. Not…
Re: Uber Boston Has Been Served
#103Earlier quoted context omitted.
Interesting point. I looked back at the world where no such regulations existed, and I didn't see a perfect market which quickly and efficiently eradicated charlatans and thieves. No, instead I saw a world where people were constantly being preyed upon by the guiled class. I saw a world where the only people you could really trust were those in your close personal circle, and every transaction with a 3rd party, new o…
So on one hand, the world is rife with thieves and scoundrels and the state is the only thing standing between what we have now and Mad Max. On the other hand you're willing to entrust people working for the state with with powers undreamed of by the thieves and scoundrels. But what happens if thieves and scoundrels hold positions within the state? Restaurant owners pay them to make laws against Food Trucks. Cab driv…
Thieves and scoundrels exist in all strata of society, it's a natural phenomenon. We create rules about the rule makers - bureaucracy is both a natural response and outcome. Vested interests infect and corrupt all things, which is why we provide mechanisms for review and change. These mechanisms may not be perfect or easy in all situations, but they can be made functional if we intend to fix them. You seem to not acknowledge the fact that a non-regulatory state becomes a weapon as well.
I am not impressed with the black and white dichotomy expressed between "regulatory state," and "free market," - in fact - the choice of "regulatory state" vs. "state of regulations," speaks volumes as to your intentions. We have direct experience with both overly-regulated states and under-regulated states. Neither work particularly well - instead, we strive to constantly re-balance them and find better ways.
It is for this last reason that I think it is good that they have come under scrutiny. This provides clear barriers for others waiting to see the rules made ineffective so that they may (wrongly) capitalize on the weakened system, and an excellent opportunity for the local population to consider the state of a rule and a bureaucracy that may have run too long unexamined.
To one last point: unscrupulous actors also pay politicians to remove laws and regulations for their benefit. The lack of or presence of, a regulation in and of its self does not predict a positive outcome.
Re: Uber Boston Has Been Served
#104Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree that the metering complaint is valid - I suspect it may be possible to create a nefarious drop-in replacement Uber Driver app which reports longer rides. The only location / metering source Uber has the iOS app and there's no additional hardware or software protection on the driver's Uber iPhone beyond the standard OS protections, which are easily circumvented by a jailbreak. In contrast, real taxi meters pro…
> The only location / metering source Uber has the iOS app and there's no additional hardware or software protection on the driver's Uber iPhone beyond the standard OS protections, which are easily circumvented by a jailbreak. It would be hardly difficult to verify metered distance via Google Maps or one of many other mapping type apps on the iPhone. There's about a million of them.
Re: Uber Boston Has Been Served
#105Earlier quoted context omitted.
Except Uber isn't a cab, it's a private car service, which is generally less regulated. Rates for private car services are generally negotiated between the driver and passenger, and if both parties agree to use Uber's GPS-based software, I don't see what Massachusetts's problem is.
More importantly, Uber is neither a cab NOR a private car service. It's a communications network that links private car services with people who want to get a ride from the private car service.
Re: Uber Boston Has Been Served
#106It seems like HN has already picked up on the major issues Uber faces in Boston, as well as pretty much every city: a new style of relationships with drivers, and "metering" virtually-on-demand livery rides, which are intended to be both unmetered and pre-arranged.
After seeing this same story repeated too many times now, and the resulting discussion, I feel the need to throw down. You don't need to trust me (IANAL, etc.), but based on my experience in the field -- I co-founded HireWinston (initially a Canadian, corporate-focused Uber competitor; we've since pivoted to competing indirectly by selling taxi fleets) -- I hope I have something to add.
First, the relationships with drivers: Uber tends to work directly with drivers (many, if not all, of whom they hire legally from existing livery services). In order to boost their chances of availability, they spend some of their hard-raised cash to book drivers for entire days, taking a steep loss at first in the hopes of driving enough demand to better satisfy their capacity.
In most cities, there are clear regulations that define a livery service. We found that, if you work as many commenters understand Uber working -- namely, as a network that has pre-arranged agreements with drivers or livery services to shuttle rides in their spare time -- you're in a sufficiently comfortable area not to get shut down. However, the way Uber works to juice supply (especially in newer markets) tends to clearly fall under the definition of a livery service, as they have their own "employees" that they pass rides to.
Second, the meters. This one I'm much more in their favour on: the phones themselves are not metering devices as the laws define them (i.e. they do not themselves calculate the price). I haven't personally torn into their source code, but having heard from an insider and having built this tech myself, I'm fairly confident their Driver App simply sends GPS data back to the server, where the calculation takes place according to a pre-defined rate. The customer either implicitly or explicitly accepts this rate through the TOS and/or by virtue of using the service (assuming the rates are published somewhere).
This setup guarantees they have something to show regulators if ever asked. From our research and testing, the integrity of the data from existing metering technology is similar enough to that from an iPhone or Android's GPS (ideally accompanied by accelerometer data). And, since the calculations happen on a server that records full route information rather than in a black box that discards it: way easier to share this with regulators. So A+.
Third, and most importantly, is what you don't see: Uber's relationships with city regulators. In Toronto, the municipal government sent us an official notice that they were concerned with our business, and that they wanted us to come talk through our business model and underlying technology with them. They were genuinely excited that there was innovation happening in the field in their city, and really just wanted to make sure we weren't doing anything egregiously wrong.
We sat down, and had an incredibly pleasant meeting. 30 minutes, back-and-forth Q&A, with some regulators who have spent years in the space. They appreciated that we knew the laws, had worked to abide by them, and were comfortable with all but one aspect of our business model (cancellation fees). No C&Ds were sent out.
At the end of the meeting, they asked us what we thought of Uber. Apparently, for months, the Uber team was dodging any request for a meeting the office sent them. While I definitely cannot attest to Uber Boston's actions on this front, I can't imagine that Uber Toronto was taking their plays from a different playbook.
In summary: Uber has done a tremendous job pushing the industry forward, and I'm confident that our approach -- selling the underlying software to existing taxi fleets, who truly want to better service their customers but have no idea what to do with technology -- is a more sustainable and dependable iteration on the model. I'm thankful to them, and I truly love a lot of the folks I know who work there.
That said, I have no sympathy whatsoever for these C&Ds whenever I read about them. The company relies on deep pockets and public sympathy for the "underdog technology company" to change laws, rather than working with the existing system. And, frankly, normally I'd even be fine with that... if it weren't the taxi drivers -- the most marginalized members of the entire taxi ecosystem -- who were getting the shortest end of the stick.
DISCLAIMER: I do not, and have never, worked for Uber. Most of my knowledge comes from a mix of an outsider's view and third-party testimony of the approach that Uber has taken in Toronto and NYC. I'm not sure if Uber Boston took a different approach than Uber Toronto or Uber NYC, so take all specifics with a grain of salt.
(edit: formatting errors)
Re: Uber Boston Has Been Served
#107I still have no idea what they do other than it somehow relates to taxicab service.
Re: Uber Boston Has Been Served
#108This is especially sad considering a recent cab experience I had in Boston. I lived in Boston for a about 5 years before moving out to Seattle, where I recently started using Uber. Boston has one of the worst cab situations especially if you go out late at night. I was back in Boston a few weeks ago, and ended up running into a few friends and stayed up till 3AM. When it was time to go home, there were either cabs th…
Re: Uber Boston Has Been Served
#109Earlier quoted context omitted.
And it's still hard to hold bad actors accountable. Especially if you don't have the foresight to identify them perfectly. In any system like Uber where dispatching, metering, and payment are all handled by devices, no foresight is required, and it is trivial to hold bad actors accountable. An untrackable actor can't even pick someone up, much less be paid. There were informational problems which hindered market mech…
An untrackable actor can't pick someone up or be paid, but how hard is it for the actor to lie to the system? How hard is it for them to change their identity to the system? How hard is it for the counterparty to cause problems and how hard is it for him to change his identity? And what if there are competitors to Uber? What if these competitors, as part of their attempt to get a wider car network refuse to rate thos…
And what if there are competitors? As long as all of them are branded, and can be reviewed on third-party sites, customers can decide whether they like the power of driver reviews, or some other mechanism for checking abuses.
You're right, it is dynamic. Who moves faster, an Uber-like enterprise or a decades-old insider-controlled city regulatory bureau? Which tends towards satisfying riders faster? There was a decade of complaints about how awful SF taxis were before Uber arrived... but the last-century regulatory assumptions protected incumbents from the pressure for change.
There were once upon a time conditions A, B, C that made it hard for customers to assess cab rates, routes, and reliability. Those specific factors led to regulations X, Y, Z.
But now for users of technology, conditions A, B, and C are gone. Anonymous pick-ups are precluded by design. Wild-goose routing to plump up fares or misleading riders about prevailing rates are both much harder... and even if you manage such a scam a little, there's no more disappearing into the night afterwards with your ill-gotten gains: there's an indelible reputational and transactional trail allowing redress. All the X, Y, Z regulations specifically created because of the 20th-century limitations are obsolete and should be nullified as soon as possible. You don't need to be brainstorming new 'what if' rationales for them, in advance of any extant problems.
Re: Uber Boston Has Been Served
#110TL;DR: Uber is innovative, but their approach (or lack thereof) to dealing with regulatory hurdles in each city disgusts me. It seems like HN has already picked up on the major issues Uber faces in Boston, as well as pretty much every city: a new style of relationships with drivers, and "metering" virtually-on-demand livery rides, which are intended to be both unmetered and pre-arranged. After seeing this same story…
However, the current system is, in many cities, broken. Working to change laws to fix a broken system will produce a better outcome than trying to work within the broken system to bring about its maximum potential.
I love and use Uber because it provides a different and better service than taxis do in San Francisco. I don't even own a car, and instead split my transportation budget between public transportation and Uber. ZipCar has its uses for some people and some situations, but for me, Uber is my go-to reliable transportation system.
Comparing and contrasting Uber with SF taxi service:
- I've never had a bad experience with an Uber driver, whereas ~30-40% of my taxi rides were unpleasant in one way or another.
- It takes all of 30 seconds to call an Uber, and they always come. Calling a taxi dispatch takes much longer and is extremely unreliable, as many taxi drivers will pick up anyone that hails them on their way to picking someone up.
- Uber takes care of all payments through the app, including tip. My credit card is charged, and it gets recorded in Mint and added to my transportation budget for the month. Many SF taxi drivers will harass you if you try to pay with a credit card.
- Uber drivers will open your door for you, call you to make sure they pick you up at the right place, and many offer to help carry bags. Taxi drivers are usually in a rush, and don't offer anything besides the ride.
These are my experiences in a year in San Francisco. I used taxis exclusively for a while because they're cheaper, but have since switched to using Uber nearly exclusively. And with UberX now, the cost difference is negligible. I see no reason to own a car in SF as long as I'm here, and the reason for that is Uber. [[I am in no way affiliated with Uber with the exception of being a customer]]