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Reports of the death of California High-Speed Rail have been greatly exaggerated

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Re: Reports of the death of California High-Speed Rail have been greatly exaggerated

#411

Post by Kon-Peki »

jltsiren wrote: post #279
bombcar wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. A huge part of these projects is proving to the public the value. So even a short, direct line is useful - as some will start to use it and then extending it becomes a simple "this thing we have is good, it should be good more."

But the short direct line might also not get built, if the projections show passenger volume will not be high enough to justify the costs. Passenger rail has high fixed costs and low marginal costs. Even with high-speed rail, you generally want to maximize the number of passengers rather than speed. Making detours to nearby major cities often makes sense, while stopping at smaller cities the route already passes thro…

At the high level, it made huge sense to create a Toronto - Ottawa - Montreal -QC route.

Up until a few months ago, the plan was to create a new link between Toronto/Detroit/Chicago and upgrade the links between Toronto/New York City and Montreal/New York City. In this previous world view in which we were all friends, getting as many larger Canadian cities as possible connected to this rail network was worth the cost.

Re: Reports of the death of California High-Speed Rail have been greatly exaggerated

#412

Post by xienze »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #284
slt2021 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there is no need to connect SF to LA only, there are many airports in each town that connect these large metro areas. the purpose of HSR is to transform large swatchs of land into a large megalopolis, like in China. China's HSR connects large metro areas into one giant megalopolis with up to 250+ mln population that totally changes the ballgame in terms of economic output https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalopolises_i…

You never been to LAX if you don't immediately act with a sigh of relief over a direct train route. It's an potential 90 minute+ commute and another 90 minute TSA process for a 90 minute flight. Dreadful. >The purpose of HSR is to transform large swatchs of land into a large megalopolis, like in China. Bakersfield has a dozen reasons ever preventing it from becoming another SF/LA/SD. Besides, China didn't build its r…

> You never been to LAX if you don't immediately act with a sigh of relief over a direct train route. It's an potential 90 minute+ commute and another 90 minute TSA process for a 90 minute flight. Dreadful.

So your estimate is 270 minutes.

Where's the train stop supposed to be in LA? Downtown, right? What's the commute for that like? Sure, no 90 minute TSA process (big doubt if that's typical) but now the 90 minute flight turns into 160 minutes (which is the target they're aiming for and it's not likely). Add on how long it takes to get downtown and... not much time savings, is there?

Re: Reports of the death of California High-Speed Rail have been greatly exaggerated

#413

Post by rangestransform »

01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote: post #407
Der_Einzige wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of being "car brained" is because even the best transit sucks compared to a Taxi. People objectively don't want to share space with the masses. Even in Singapore or Japan, the stress of being in crowds is simply not worth it. Its slower, requires far more mental energy to plan your route, and requires a lot of physical movement which is hard for fatass americans. Especially when America has quite cheap, awesome…

If gasoline was sold for a fair price, cars would be reduced to a novelty within a generation

Is it so wrong that we elect politicians to preserve our desired lifestyle?

Re: Reports of the death of California High-Speed Rail have been greatly exaggerated

#414

Post by rangestransform »

danans wrote: post #160
rayiner wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn’t make sense. California is bigger and richer than all but the largest European countries. It has some of the top universities in the world. Why shouldn’t it have a higher caliber of public official than say Denmark?

> It has some of the top universities in the world. Why shouldn’t it have a higher caliber of public official than say Denmark? Many officials in the current administration who are wreaking havoc on the US economy went to the top universities, like Harvard, Columbia, etc. Attending those universities doesn't imply responsibility or sense of duty to public service at all. CA does have "high caliber" public officials,…

Many of the same things could be said about Singapore, yet they have a public service that is ridiculously competent compared to western countries

I would rather California be a Singapore for high achievers than a more egalitarian Denmark

Re: Reports of the death of California High-Speed Rail have been greatly exaggerated

#415

Post by dragonwriter »

GeekyBear wrote: post #60
slt2021 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Article states that I-5 corridor skips all major towns in central valley which kinda kills the purpose of HSR connecting SF to central valley towns to LA

I thunk it boils down to the fact that acquiring land near San Francisco or LA through imminent domain would be both hideously expensive and extremely unpopular. Building "High Speed Rail to nowhere" in the Central Valley allowed them kick that can of political infighting down the road.

> I thunk it boils down to the fact that acquiring land near San Francisco or LA through imminent domain would be both hideously expensive and extremely unpopular.

“Eminent domain”, and the SF to SJ run for CA HSR uses almost entirely existing rail right-ot-way shared with Caltrain.

> Building "High Speed Rail to nowhere" in the Central Valley allowed them kick that can of political infighting down the road.

You are right that doing Central Valley first was political, but you have the wrong political motivation. The political motivation was (1) to mitigate partisan political resistance to the project by prividing the most immediate benefit to the Republican districts in the Central Valley, and (2) to secure federal funding under ARRA, which prioritized shovel-ready projects, because the issues that needed cleared to reach an approximation of that state for the termini were more time consuming.

Re: Reports of the death of California High-Speed Rail have been greatly exaggerated

#416

Post by dragonwriter »

GeekyBear wrote: post #107
gruez wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and extremely unpopular Who's shedding a tear for some farmer getting paid above market rates (presumably) for their land? California is probably the last place I'd expect people to think using eminent domain in this case is a slipper slope to communism or whatever.

Eventually you will have to build out the rail line in densely populated areas (especially near San Francisco and LA). High speed rail requires that you to avoid unnecessary curves. At that point, you're going to have to start using imminent domain. Putting it off until after you have billions of dollars in sunk costs in the Central Valley doesn't change that.

> Eventually you will have to build out the rail line in densely populated areas (especially near San Francisco and LA).

The SJ to SF run is on existing rail right of way.

> At that point, you're going to have to start using imminent domain.

They’ve been using eminent domain the whole time, they aren't going to have to start at some point in the future.

Re: Reports of the death of California High-Speed Rail have been greatly exaggerated

#417

Post by dragonwriter »

GeekyBear wrote: post #129
gruez wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Eventually you will have to build out the rail line in densely populated areas (especially near San Francisco and LA). High speed rail requires that you to avoid unnecessary curves. why can't you have it run slowly in built up areas? As another commenter mentioned that's how it works in France.

Because competing with the airlines requires some semblance of "high speed"? California is fairly densely packed once you get away from the Central Valley and nearer to the coast where the people are.

Most of the run for CA HSR is in the Central Valley because most of the length of California between the Bay and LA is.

Re: Reports of the death of California High-Speed Rail have been greatly exaggerated

#418

Post by dragonwriter »

vlovich123 wrote: post #241
bobthepanda wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current plan actually accounts for this; the 2:40 includes the amount of time it takes to run on the current Caltrain tracks from San Jose to SF which will not be running at the highest speeds.

Said another way, that SF/San Jose stretch accounts for 25-30% of the total time. That’s similarly true for the last stretch of LA meaning a truly engineering driven design could have done it within ~1h50. And note that the 2h40 goal is admitted as a pipe dream by everyone involved, particularly because of the last mile issues and the circuitous route.

> a truly engineering driven design

If by “engineering-driven” you mean “focussed on speed alone and not the actual project goals”, but...

Re: Reports of the death of California High-Speed Rail have been greatly exaggerated

#419

Post by dragonwriter »

vlovich123 wrote: post #410
inferiorhuman wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Upgraded signaling along the Caltrain ROW is in the works, but again you've got to balance the egos of the three big stakeholders. Caltrain is a far smaller problem to CAHSR than e..g Metro North is to Acela. The big issue is going to be the approach to downtown SF — which is still a ridiculous political football.

Something something something “solve the hard problems first”.

Giving operating HSR to the Valley first, even though this isn't historically the reason for it, is probably a very good way to motivate a solution to any political problems in the urban areas around the termini.

Re: Reports of the death of California High-Speed Rail have been greatly exaggerated

#420

Post by Der_Einzige »

01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote: post #407
Der_Einzige wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of being "car brained" is because even the best transit sucks compared to a Taxi. People objectively don't want to share space with the masses. Even in Singapore or Japan, the stress of being in crowds is simply not worth it. Its slower, requires far more mental energy to plan your route, and requires a lot of physical movement which is hard for fatass americans. Especially when America has quite cheap, awesome…

If gasoline was sold for a fair price, cars would be reduced to a novelty within a generation

You should go to the third world and see how much cheaper gas is there.

A lot of third world countries exist almost entierly off of gas subsidies from the government. Go look at what Libyans paid per liter of gas during the Gadaffi years.

Americans already pay a "fair price". No, no one in the world properly accounts for "externalities" of consumption.

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