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Reports of the death of California High-Speed Rail have been greatly exaggerated

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Re: Reports of the death of California High-Speed Rail have been greatly exaggerated

#391

Post by ta1243 »

inglor_cz wrote: post #360
aylmao wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my region (Latin America) when a "boondoggle" of such high monetary cost happens, we call it for what it usually is— corruption. All those billions of dollars are going to someone's pockets. There's a lot of money to be made from inefficient infrastructure projects.

Here in the EU, we usually consider Italy and Spain somewhat more corrupt than the Western average, but high-speed rail in both countries got built reliably and without major delays. Even though both peninsulas are mountainous, by no means an easy terrain.

I wonder if low level corruption on €1m projects means there's no room in the market for high level corruption.

Re: Reports of the death of California High-Speed Rail have been greatly exaggerated

#392

Post by mapt »

aylmao wrote: post #219
pj_mukh wrote: post #141

This is the most California article ever written. The author admits that if the line was run along the I-5 it probably wouldn't need all the costly grade-separation and state property issues it's now facing. It may have even finished with its original funding! But instead of immediately being able to serve the upwards of 18M people of Greater Los Angeles and 7.5M people of the Bay Area, the 1M people of the Central V…

In my region (Latin America) when a "boondoggle" of such high monetary cost happens, we call it for what it usually is— corruption. All those billions of dollars are going to someone's pockets. There's a lot of money to be made from inefficient infrastructure projects.

California contracting in particular is built not of penurious individual corruption, but of systemic corruption. The lowest bid must win, and nobody has the political capital to establish a bidding system that works, so dramatic systematic underbidding + cost overruns is the rule, and is expected by all parties except the naive public.

Couple that with the kind of "Build nothing if any single problem can be detacted", 'Cheems mindset' failures of liberalism, and high-pressure demands from a federal government whose legislators are eager to sabotage projects outside of purple states.

https://normielisation.substack.com/p/cheems-mindset

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcZxaFfxloo

Re: Reports of the death of California High-Speed Rail have been greatly exaggerated

#393

Post by casey2 »

If this administration really wanted to turn the US into a manufacturing powerhouse on the level of China then it would HAVE to steamroll over NIMBYs and red tape, and would plan to lay 1000x more track year on year. Without rail there is 0 chance the US ever becomes competitive there is no magic innovation to be had here.

Re: Reports of the death of California High-Speed Rail have been greatly exaggerated

#394

Post by ta1243 »

arrowsmith wrote: post #376
anon7000 wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, in this case, the problem is more so that money wasn’t spent on large swaths of the project.

Idk about Canada, but what you usually see in the UK is that tens of millions of pounds get spend before a single brick is laid. Money disappears into consultations, reviews, studies and reports of dubious value, the paperwork keeps piling up and it takes years before the public sees anything tangible, if the project ever gets built at all. Someone somewhere is getting very rich off this, but it ain't the taxpayer.

Tens of millions?

£1.2 BILLION before a single spade in the ground for the lower thames crossing

https://www.ft.com/content/917d4b7f-318e-46fe-ba44-664551ebc...

The planning document alone was 350,000 pages long, and cost about £1000 per page (£350m).

What western countries lack is someone empowered enough to just say "fuck it, make it happen", and be held accountable once it's built.

Re: Reports of the death of California High-Speed Rail have been greatly exaggerated

#395

Post by casey2 »

trollbridge wrote: post #269
blackguardx wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, but infrastructure is often built to expand future regions. Before the Golden Gate and Bay Bridges, there was a lot less commuting to SF. They only had ferries. Building the bridges allowed the broader region to expand and prosper.

Well, Bakersfield at al is not exactly a "future region" - it's been there for a long time with a giant freeway into it (and railroads, too, including rail service from Bakersfield all the way to Stockton with connections to San Francisco and Sacramento) and it has remained a sleepy agricultural corridor. The weather is awful and it's just not where most people in California want to live.

Only a California resident could call Bakersfield's weather "awful".

If you (read NIMBYs) shut down all public policy designed to turn your sleepy town into a thriving one then it's just a self fulfilling prophecy.

Re: Reports of the death of California High-Speed Rail have been greatly exaggerated

#396

Post by Der_Einzige »

ergsef wrote: post #170
jonahrd wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is actually exactly what has been happening over the past few decades, and with the current proposal, for HSR from Toronto to Montreal, two of the largest cities in terms of both population and economy in Canada. Ottawa felt excluded, and is where the federal govt is based, so instead of going along the 401, a straight highway that follows a river valley and lake and has existing rail corridors, it has to go fro…

The fact is that politicians are insanely car-brained and nobody has any enthusiasm for improving rail infrastructure. Via Rail is trapped in this insane spiral of service cuts where it's miserable for staff and riders, and the solution is to cut more to make up for declining ridership. The new HSR is only happening because with the innovation of P3 deals the government can pay for the project but give all the profit…

A lot of being "car brained" is because even the best transit sucks compared to a Taxi.

People objectively don't want to share space with the masses. Even in Singapore or Japan, the stress of being in crowds is simply not worth it. Its slower, requires far more mental energy to plan your route, and requires a lot of physical movement which is hard for fatass americans.

Especially when America has quite cheap, awesomely fast and fun cars (your local C8 Corvette can be had for 15% off MSRP from the factory right now).

Cars are freedom. Mass transit is biopolitics/biopower. Big ass off road capable trucks literally don't even need roads.

Re: Reports of the death of California High-Speed Rail have been greatly exaggerated

#397

Post by ta1243 »

slt2021 wrote: post #244
andbberger wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the opportunity cost isn't a 7% increase in length, it's the tens of billions in extra infrastructure to build 350km/h right of way straight through the middle of every town all the way down the central valley, and the massive hit to SF-LA run time that will come with that. beyond the stop penalty, HSR just doesn't run at full speed through city centers anywhere in the world. doesn't happen.

people who need to get from SF to LA as soon as possible are already served by the airplanes. Your business class traveler from LA/orange county to SF bay is already well served by the many airports in both metro areas. the HSR is about connecting the rest of the state to economic opportunities in these large metro areas

If you want HSR you'd have at most one stop between LA and SF.

If you're going to stop throughout the rest of the state you just want normal rail running at 100-120mph.

Re: Reports of the death of California High-Speed Rail have been greatly exaggerated

#398

Post by ta1243 »

GeekyBear wrote: post #129
gruez wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Eventually you will have to build out the rail line in densely populated areas (especially near San Francisco and LA). High speed rail requires that you to avoid unnecessary curves. why can't you have it run slowly in built up areas? As another commenter mentioned that's how it works in France.

Because competing with the airlines requires some semblance of "high speed"? California is fairly densely packed once you get away from the Central Valley and nearer to the coast where the people are.

Americans tell me that public transport can't work in the America because it's not dense enough.

Re: Reports of the death of California High-Speed Rail have been greatly exaggerated

#399

Post by Qwertious »

timewizard wrote: post #262
mullingitover wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that this should've been a federal project from the start, one of many running concurrently nationwide. Doing it nationwide would give economies of scale that wouldn't be possible with these local half-measures. California, and every other of the dozen plus states where this rolled out should've barely even had any say in the matter. Maybe deciding what artwork to put up in the stations and what to nam…

It's reflective of the imbalance of political power in the state and the corruption this power base now suborns. They don't care about the rail project. They're the least likely people to need or use it. They either want it to not happen or if it does at least it provides them with ample opportunities for creating further graft and corruption. It was almost impossible to find a map where the proposed HSR routes are o…

>It was almost impossible to find a map where the proposed HSR routes are overlaid with the current Interstate routes. I wonder why.

Because the biggest threat to any rail project in Cali is political protest and "environmental" lawsuits ("this construction will destroy my view of the landscape!") and the second biggest threat is being forced to buy land from a bunch of people who've had years to collude in only offering ludicrously high prices.

Any sensible project will do its level best to avoid any developed rural land; it's the only way to avoid the massive delays and cost overruns you're complaining about. And besides, once it's built, the land around it will be developed because of the HSR line itself.

Re: Reports of the death of California High-Speed Rail have been greatly exaggerated

#400

Post by truculent »

janalsncm wrote: post #144

> claim that the relative failure of the California High-Speed Rail “boondoggle” represents the political dysfunction of either California > This criticism also misunderstands one of the main challenges that CAHSR has faced. Al Boraq had full funding lined up before the project began. CAHSR did not. This led to delays that reduced support and encouraged critics, which starved it of funding commitments and thus led to…

I think the argument is that the real issue is political will and not structural issues in government.

Personally, it seems fair to call that political dysfunction too, but it’s reasonable to try and make the distinction.

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