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Oracle engineers caused five days software outage at U.S. hospitals

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Re: Oracle engineers caused five days software outage at U.S. hospitals

#62

Title should be "Oracle execs caused five days software outage at US hospitals". If the systems helped save lots of life, you bet the engineers wouldn't be thanked for that and it probably wouldn't even be a news article

The engineers are the one's who deleted the db though.

Re: Oracle engineers caused five days software outage at U.S. hospitals

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just watched a YC video about vibe coding. He says he used Claude Sonnet 3.7 to configure his DNS servers & Heroku hosting. What could possibly go wrong?! "How To Get The Most Out Of Vibe Coding | Startup School " => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJjsfNO5JTo&t=494s I like his advice on downloading relevant documentation and putting it in the code base. That makes sense to me for targeted use cases.

I managed to break production before vibe coding was cool. 20 years old me had rm -fr root access to way too many systems. I don't think it's much different today. If anything, I think the youngsters will learn faster from their mistakes because they already have good mentor for the easy stuff and will get grinded on the hard stuff sooner.

I'm not so sure. I did an experiment last year. I was writing a prototype in a language I'm not well versed in, using unfamiliar tools and only somewhat familiar libraries. I made heavy use of ChatGPT and other tools to get the job done. (Well, actually, I wrote several pieces of software this way, but only one major for-work prototype).

Some observations:

Initial velocity was high. It felt like I was getting things done. This was exciting and satisfying.

The code I wrote was structurally unsound as it ended up having no overall plan. This became more and more evident as the prototype was completed. Yes, it was a prototype, but usually I use prototypes to think about structure. (Choosing the right way to structure a problem is a key part of solving the problem)

My retention of new knowledge was terrible. Ditto for developing any deep understanding of the tools and libraries I was using. I had skipped the entire process by which I usually learn and just had the LLMs tell me solutions. This provided a poor basis for turning the prototype into production code because I had to catch up on all the thinking that should have been part of producing the prototype. And I had to sit down and read the documentation.

LLMs are only as good as your prompts. You actually need to know quite a bit in order to formulate good prompts. Being a fairly experienced programmer (and also having a some knowledge of LLMs and a former career in web search) I had significant advantages novices do not have.

Now imagine a novice who lacks the experience to see the shortcomings of their code (hey, it works doesn't it!?) and the ability to introspect and think about why they failed.

Half of the time the LLM would lead me astray and pursue paths that resulted in poor solutions when better solutions would have been more obvious if I'd just read documentation. It is easy to become focused on exhausting paths that the LLM sent you down in the first place and poke it to give you something that works.

I have nearly 40 years of programming experience. It scared me how stupid relying too much on a LLM made me. Yes, it got me started quickly and it feels faster. However the inflection point that comes some time into the learning process, where things start to click, didn't materialize. Mostly I was just poking the LLM in various ways to make it spit out solutions to tiny parts of the problem at a time.

I still use LLMs. Every day. But I use it more as a fancy search engine. Sometimes I use it to generate ideas - to try detect blind spots (solutions I don't know about, alternative approaches etc). Having been burnt by LLMs hallucinating I consistently ask LLMs to list their sources and then go and look at those.

LLMs are *NOT* mentors. A mentor isn't someone who does the thinking and the work for you. A mentor is also not an alternative to reference material or the means by which you find information. You're expected to do that yourself. A mentor is not someone who eliminates the need to grind through things. You have to grind through things to learn. There is no alternative if you are going to learn.

A mentor is someone who uses their experience and insight to help your personal growth.

Re: Oracle engineers caused five days software outage at U.S. hospitals

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just watched a YC video about vibe coding. He says he used Claude Sonnet 3.7 to configure his DNS servers & Heroku hosting. What could possibly go wrong?! "How To Get The Most Out Of Vibe Coding | Startup School " => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJjsfNO5JTo&t=494s I like his advice on downloading relevant documentation and putting it in the code base. That makes sense to me for targeted use cases.

I managed to break production before vibe coding was cool. 20 years old me had rm -fr root access to way too many systems. I don't think it's much different today. If anything, I think the youngsters will learn faster from their mistakes because they already have good mentor for the easy stuff and will get grinded on the hard stuff sooner.

[deleted]

Re: Oracle engineers caused five days software outage at U.S. hospitals

#65

I'd risk to say it was compounding interest on tech debt, but it doesn't sound as sexy, does it?

> engineers conducting maintenance work mistakenly deleted critical storage connected to a key database

I'd say poor process management. Why is an engineer even deleting critical storage (I take that to mean that they are deleting something of a file-system). Perhaps they where dropping a database, but you wouldn't do it like that in a critical environment. You'd disable the database access first, and then after some time, weeks, you'd drop the database, after doing a final backup.

It could also be disconnecting a SAN, deleting a storage pool, something like that, but your process should say: Check of read activity, off-line the storage, anything non-destructive, and the only later, once you've verified that everything runs without this resource, do you delete.

At previous jobs I've worked with healthcare system. You have processes, you follow those proesses to the letter and you never delete anything as your first step. Deleting is almost always done by going into read-only mode and ageing out the data.

The fact that recovery time is four days tells me that no one followed a single procedure. Because there should be a written step by step plan, including recovery and risk assessment and when the change manager sees: "Recovery time five days" they will ask questions and stop you.

This is probably the only answer less sexy than technical debt.

Re: Oracle engineers caused five days software outage at U.S. hospitals

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Oracle comes to any country/industry with trucks of money to corrupt officials and lobby their adoption. And after a few years you find yourself in a situation when you already paid for Oracle so much, integrated it so deeply, so switching to any alternative is a massive pain and in most cases it’s safer and easier to keep paying Oracle.

I believe this is how they grew and how they remain big. While smaller companies aim for managers, Oracle targets CTOs and CEOs, takes them out for expensive dinners and promises them the world. Then, they legacy handcuffed them forever. And virtually no one chooses to invest crazy amounts of money on migrating or even starting a new codebase when your company lifeblood has been poured into the Faustian Oracle machin…

Are managers really not doing background checks about company behaviour before signing a contract?

Re: Oracle engineers caused five days software outage at U.S. hospitals

#67
post #2

I don't understand why anyone buys Oracle. Every Oracle product I used over the last 15 years has been awful.

I made a similar experience. The database just stopped working one day, triggered by a normal restart without any updates or patches. Fixed the configuration, tested it, restarted multiple times, everything works. After a week it was not working again, without me being able to fix it except doing a fresh reinstall on a clean VM.

Luckily more and more customers switched to Postgres and I no longer have to deal with it.

Re: Oracle engineers caused five days software outage at U.S. hospitals

#68

Oracle has a horrible reputation among devs. But I think they bypass devs for purchase decisions and straight up wine and dine and bamboozle the low information execs. When I worked at a megacorp as a dev, I had near zero say in such purchase decisions. I had to work with what I was given. Thankfully I work for a much smaller shop now. Better pay and much better decision autonomy.

>Oracle has a horrible reputation among devs. But I think they bypass devs for purchase decisions and straight up wine and dine and bamboozle the low information execs.

That is only partially true. Oracle has a wide portfolio of a bunch of products and the "wine & dine the execs" is the sales cycle for software like ERP Oracle E-Business Suite and Oracle Health (Cerner). E.g. it's the hospital CFO & CIO that are the true "customers" of Oracle Health and not the frontline doctors and nurses that use it.

However, for the Oracle RDBMS database ... it was often the developers that chose it over competitors such as IBM DB2, Sybase, Informix, MS SQL Server.

In the late 1980s and early 1990s, a lot of us devs did a "bake off" with various databases and Oracle often won on technical merit. E.g. Oracle had true row-level locking but MS SQL Server before v6.5 was page-level locking. And the open source alternatives of MySQL and PostgreSQL at that early timeframe were not mature enough to compete with advanced Oracle features such as Parallel Query Execution and Recovery from a Standby database.

E.g. the C Language programmer Shel Kaphan at Amazon chose Oracle in 1994: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/jpcharles_in-1994-amazons-fir...

(that anecdote cited this deep link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3qIWN-ZIPk&t=1h11m56s)

It took Amazon 25 years to finally migrate off of all Oracle databases: https://www.google.com/search?q=oracle+shuts+off+last+oracle...

So young devs today who aren't aware of history will wonder why Amazon ever got locked into Oracle in the first place?!? It was because in 1994, Oracle db was a very reasonable technical choice for devs to make.

Re: Oracle engineers caused five days software outage at U.S. hospitals

#69
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> young people not taking an interest in COBOL and Mainframes It is more like young people not wanting to: - throw their careers out of the window by pigeonholing themselves into zombieware tech - experience high levels of stress trying to debug code older than their parents, writing code that can't be unit tested and pushing said code to production

> writing code that can't be unit tested and pushing said code to production Isn't that just "move fast" these days?

It’s called vibe coding now.

Re: Oracle engineers caused five days software outage at U.S. hospitals

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oracle offers everything. Databases, web frameworks, programming languages, CRMs, cloud management tools, auto scaling clusters, identity management, BI, document search, email servers, colocation, mainframes, calendar sync. You name it, they've got it. Oracle has products ready to go to run an entire country if it needs to. Sure, Postgres beats OracleDB, but Postgres doesn't integrate as well with Oracle Fusion and…

> Sure, Postgres beats OracleDB Are we sure? I'm by no means a DBA, but DBA at our company (who is freaking smart btw) said if money wasn't an issue, he would actually go with OracleDB.

The Oracle database is an amazing piece of software. The problem with it is as open source and SQL Server started eroding its share, Oracle pivoted to owning vertical line of business software.

My employer probably spends more money on databases for our learning management system than we do for one of our main customer facing apps with thousands of concurrent users. It’s literally a tally of training courses.

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