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Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

arstechnica.com

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Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#61

Post by Tade0 »

justlikereddit wrote: post #45
Animats wrote: post #8

Spain is mostly back up. Plant startup is only the first step.[1] It's load pickup. Here is a PJM training module on load pickup during system restoration.[2] It gives a sense of how touchy the process is. Power network control has good control over generation and transmission, but limited control over load. When load is turned on, there are transient loads with different time constants. There's a huge load for the f…

The groundwork for the blackout will inevitably come back to a buildout and reliance of renewable sources that do not have spinning mass that can do frequency synchronization. There are costly means to compensate for the lack of spinning baseload but actually building these devices have been neglected, to no ones surprise.

Why would you need a spinning mass when you have an inverter which can produce a range of frequencies and outputs and it all boils down to coordination?

Looking at power generation reports it's the plants relying on inertia (like nuclear) which were disconnected and haven't been reconnected since:

https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/ES/72h/hourly

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#62

Post by franga2000 »

joha4270 wrote: post #51
scrlk wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dropping from 32 to 8 GW usually means that an interconnected grid has fragmented into islands. If an island has a blackout, you need to black start it and resynchronise it with other islands.

But what prevents you from connecting the stopped power plants to one of those islands and then running it from there? I'm not claiming that is easy, but its not a black start. It looks to me like the author of this article has fundamentally misunderstood what a black start is. The fact that some power generation remained both on the peninsula, but also on imported power being available means that to my understanding…

A black start is a process, not a situation. The situation they're in might not fully necessitate a black start, but a black start procedure might still be the best course of action. Some plants have that capability and the rest (should) have a direct tie to one that does. For all practical purposes, that's a black start.

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#63

Post by jsjohnst »

brohee wrote: post #47
adrianN wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea how much power an EUV source consumes, but I’m surprised to hear that it’s more than a handful of kW. What’s the right ballpark?

ASML says 1.3 MW for a single system. So off by three orders of magnitude. https://www.asml.com/en/news/stories/2024/a-sustainability-m...

Thanks for sharing the link! 1.3MW really isn’t that high of a load though. Thats a very straightforward load to be able to support via diesel generators. As an example, a typical large datacenter uses an order of magnitude more power, yet stays online following a grid outage.

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#64

Post by [deleted] »

brohee wrote: post #44
rightbyte wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that? Are turbines easier to speed regulate than diesel engines?

Yes, the huge rotating mass is inherently more stable than a diesel. They key to grid stability is mostly huge rotating mass, either producing or consuming.

[deleted]

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#65

Post by ffsm8 »

flysand7 wrote: post #53

Oh man, this reminds me of factorio. When you miscalculate your power needs and your generators eat up the fuel that isn't being produced enough. I've had to make a bootstrapping mechanisms and power switches for some of my powerplants to ensure I can get it back up in case it goes down and I can then re-enable my factory bit by bit.

It's even worse in satisfactory imo, because the game is build around your fabs consuming wildly varying amounts of power throughout their production cycle... And after a power loss, they'll not only need the initial burst (can be handled via batteries) but will also now all be synchronized to have their power spikes at exactly the same moment.

Dyson sphere program is the by far most forgiving in that regard. You can overdraw to something like 200% before it becomes really problematic, and even that quickly resolves itself the moment you get more power online

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#66

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

showsover wrote: post #9

That was a fun 10 hours or so that we were without power in most of Barcelona. Some barrios had ~some~ power but most of us were without. The one thing that surprised me is how quickly rumors started about power being out in Portugal (true), France (true to an extent), Belgium (false), and the UK (false). Walking back home from work you heard the names of Trump being mentioned as well. It's a bit scary to personally…

Spain and Portugal had to deny a fake social viral that said power was out across most of Europe and the Russians were cutting undersea cables.

On the upside, more people at all levels are going to be more prepared if it happens again.

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#67

Post by rdtsc »

lifty wrote: post #57
justlikereddit wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The groundwork for the blackout will inevitably come back to a buildout and reliance of renewable sources that do not have spinning mass that can do frequency synchronization. There are costly means to compensate for the lack of spinning baseload but actually building these devices have been neglected, to no ones surprise.

Not sure why you are downvoted but this rings true to me.

Just like there is vibe coding, this is vibe downvoting: “they are probably right, but kinda feels like they are dissing renewables, and I like renewables, better downvote just in case”

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#68

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

boxed wrote: post #5

99% up now. It's pretty impressive how fast they can get the system up and running again considering how seldom they need to do these types of things.

Initial estimates went from "No idea" to "Could take days".

In the end it took about 12 hours to restore most of the power in two countries. There are some knock-on effects from trains being in the wrong places, but a solid result overall.

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#69

Post by elric »

xenospn wrote: post #19
showsover wrote: post #9

That was a fun 10 hours or so that we were without power in most of Barcelona. Some barrios had ~some~ power but most of us were without. The one thing that surprised me is how quickly rumors started about power being out in Portugal (true), France (true to an extent), Belgium (false), and the UK (false). Walking back home from work you heard the names of Trump being mentioned as well. It's a bit scary to personally…

I never have any cash on me. That would’ve sucked.

In my experience, shops you frequent will be sympathetic to that problem and will just let you come back to pay later. And I imagine that any shops that sell stuff that needs to be kept cool were especially amenable to that ...

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#70

Post by elric »

consp wrote: post #35
showsover wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was referring to the fact that generally people prefer cold beer, not room temp beer.

Pedantic, but most beers should be drank (according to the manufacturers and experts) at 7-13c depending on type of beer. Exceptions always exist to confirm the rule. Which is above fridge and around "cellar" temperatures. Unless you drink Schultenbrau, which tastes worse cold than at room temperature (/s, kind of).

TIL Schultenbrau is a real beer. I thought it was gag beer designed for the New Kids show.

The same goes for wine, by the way: cellar temperature is usually optimal.

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