Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

arstechnica.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 154 posts

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#51

Post by joha4270 »

scrlk wrote: post #7
matkoniecz wrote: post #3

But according to production data it has never dropped to zero? Why it would be a black start? It dropped from about 32GW to about 8GW source: https://transparency.entsoe.eu/generation/r2/actualGeneratio... though admittedly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_start mentions that partial shutdown may be also requiring a black start?

Dropping from 32 to 8 GW usually means that an interconnected grid has fragmented into islands. If an island has a blackout, you need to black start it and resynchronise it with other islands.

But what prevents you from connecting the stopped power plants to one of those islands and then running it from there? I'm not claiming that is easy, but its not a black start.

It looks to me like the author of this article has fundamentally misunderstood what a black start is. The fact that some power generation remained both on the peninsula, but also on imported power being available means that to my understanding this cannot be classified as a "black start". A lot of overtime, a lot of careful coordination yes, a black start, no

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#52

Post by [deleted] »

justlikereddit wrote: post #45
Animats wrote: post #8

Spain is mostly back up. Plant startup is only the first step.[1] It's load pickup. Here is a PJM training module on load pickup during system restoration.[2] It gives a sense of how touchy the process is. Power network control has good control over generation and transmission, but limited control over load. When load is turned on, there are transient loads with different time constants. There's a huge load for the f…

The groundwork for the blackout will inevitably come back to a buildout and reliance of renewable sources that do not have spinning mass that can do frequency synchronization. There are costly means to compensate for the lack of spinning baseload but actually building these devices have been neglected, to no ones surprise.

[deleted]

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#53

Post by flysand7 »

Oh man, this reminds me of factorio. When you miscalculate your power needs and your generators eat up the fuel that isn't being produced enough. I've had to make a bootstrapping mechanisms and power switches for some of my powerplants to ensure I can get it back up in case it goes down and I can then re-enable my factory bit by bit.

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#54

Post by exar0815 »

Mistletoe wrote: post #39
exar0815 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't answer for aluminium, but I can answer for window glass: One of our plants was threatened by massive flooding 2021, threatening the float glass oven (which doesn't float itself despite the name). It was closed off with insulation, turned off, and everyone hoped for the best and no steam explosion. In the end, only the cellars with the control equipment flooded and it could be gradually (as the control cabinets…

How did you find that much insulation quickly and what kind was it?

The Insulation is in place all the time because the process is very energy intensive and the glass over the whole basin is supposed to cool evenly. Just the end is not closed off as the glass is ejected in a continuous endless stream[1].

https://www.blindex.com.br/-/media/blindex/site-content/xx-n...

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#55

Post by fifteen1506 »

showsover wrote: post #22
xenospn wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never have any cash on me. That would’ve sucked.

I spent my last 5 euros on a sandwich and a croissant to eat on the walk home. All in all a pretty decent experience.

Add the store on Foursquare, "good blackout sandwich, 5 stars"

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#56

Post by diggan »

Zealotux wrote: post #36
prox wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe make it a yearly event, turn off all power (like Earth Day) just for the socializing aspect.

I honestly thought we should make it a public holiday and shut down the electricity once a year, not so realistic unfortunately.

If we're ready for it and can prepare, it wouldn't be so bad I'd guess. Trouble yesterday was that we had no idea about the scope, I was in the middle of finishing moving houses, but was promptly held back when I arrived with a van to Barcelona and noticed it wasn't just my town that was without power.

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#57

Post by lifty »

justlikereddit wrote: post #45
Animats wrote: post #8

Spain is mostly back up. Plant startup is only the first step.[1] It's load pickup. Here is a PJM training module on load pickup during system restoration.[2] It gives a sense of how touchy the process is. Power network control has good control over generation and transmission, but limited control over load. When load is turned on, there are transient loads with different time constants. There's a huge load for the f…

The groundwork for the blackout will inevitably come back to a buildout and reliance of renewable sources that do not have spinning mass that can do frequency synchronization. There are costly means to compensate for the lack of spinning baseload but actually building these devices have been neglected, to no ones surprise.

Not sure why you are downvoted but this rings true to me.

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#58

Post by Bad_CRC »

showsover wrote: post #9

That was a fun 10 hours or so that we were without power in most of Barcelona. Some barrios had ~some~ power but most of us were without. The one thing that surprised me is how quickly rumors started about power being out in Portugal (true), France (true to an extent), Belgium (false), and the UK (false). Walking back home from work you heard the names of Trump being mentioned as well. It's a bit scary to personally…

I'm close to a refinery and seeing black smoke coming out 5 minutes later of the blackout was a bit of a scare tbh.

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#59

Post by api »

prox wrote: post #34
Zealotux wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am in Barcelona too. The combination of no power and patchy internet was the perfect recipe for rumors to spread, which was fun to observe. I went for a walk since I couldn't work and saw tons of people socializing, drinking beers (more than usual), and young people playing without their phones. It'll be a special day to remember, I think.

Maybe make it a yearly event, turn off all power (like Earth Day) just for the socializing aspect.

Shutting off (anti-) social media would be enough.

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#60

Post by moralestapia »

lifty wrote: post #57
justlikereddit wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The groundwork for the blackout will inevitably come back to a buildout and reliance of renewable sources that do not have spinning mass that can do frequency synchronization. There are costly means to compensate for the lack of spinning baseload but actually building these devices have been neglected, to no ones surprise.

Not sure why you are downvoted but this rings true to me.

For about 2-3 years the default for people here has been to downvote everything rather than driving discussion; much more reddit-esque than what it used to be. There are no other sites like this one to jump to, unfortunately.

On-topic: Wind power brings in about 20% of Spain's electricity, and that one fluctuates a lot indeed. I hope they put out a detailed post-mortem, I'd be an enjoyable read.

Post reply on HN