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Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

arstechnica.com

41–50 of 154 posts

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#41
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never have any cash on me. That would’ve sucked.

I spent my last 5 euros on a sandwich and a croissant to eat on the walk home. All in all a pretty decent experience.

Your comment immediately brings to mind this classic of croissant eating in ‘interesting’ circumstances: https://youtube.com/watch?v=wp84sRpM1Js

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#42
post #15

How do energy intensive processes like aluminium smelters or window glass producers preven their machines from self destruction ?

In some cases they don't have any practical ability to. The Texas winter storm resulted in a lot of scrap at semiconductor lines due to power loss. There are industries that are completely dependent on grid power. You can't generate enough on site to back up 100% of your operation. Think about how much power one EUV source consumes. The only reason Samsung is building additional factories in Texas is because the loca…

I have no idea how much power an EUV source consumes, but I’m surprised to hear that it’s more than a handful of kW. What’s the right ballpark?

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How warm is "too warm"? I find cold beer, and cold soft drinks as well, quite repulsive. I usually try to order without ice entirely, and if I receive any bottles or cans, I permit them to come to room temp before consumption. Refrigeration is sort of a scourge to those who enjoy food. We are so used to simply freezing our esophagus and not tasting anything! Food is kept cold because it lasts longer, not because it t…

I was referring to the fact that generally people prefer cold beer, not room temp beer.

> generally people prefer cold beer

Do they? But why? Why would they? Are they simply accustomed to tasting it that way? I should say "not tasting it" because chilling a beverage basically kills its flavours, and they never make it to your tongue correctly.

I would say that many people would be surprised and amazed if they tasted such things as Pepsi without ice, and without coming right out of the fridge.

Unfortunately, any lack of refrigeration really messes up supply chains and will eat into anyone's bottom line, so it's not a realistic goal.

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#44

We had something similar happen in Tunisia in 2002. The reliance on diesel turbines meant a very long rebooting process. As a result, the government invested heavily in installing gas turbines all over the country. When we had another blackout event in 2018(?), it only took an hour or so to get things back again.

Why is that? Are turbines easier to speed regulate than diesel engines?

Yes, the huge rotating mass is inherently more stable than a diesel. They key to grid stability is mostly huge rotating mass, either producing or consuming.

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#45
post #8

Spain is mostly back up. Plant startup is only the first step.[1] It's load pickup. Here is a PJM training module on load pickup during system restoration.[2] It gives a sense of how touchy the process is. Power network control has good control over generation and transmission, but limited control over load. When load is turned on, there are transient loads with different time constants. There's a huge load for the f…

The groundwork for the blackout will inevitably come back to a buildout and reliance of renewable sources that do not have spinning mass that can do frequency synchronization.

There are costly means to compensate for the lack of spinning baseload but actually building these devices have been neglected, to no ones surprise.

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#46
I am no expert, however with solar power and more grid batteries (I don’t think Spain has many grid batteries) wouldn’t it be possible to charge the batteries and use that to drive a ‘black start’.

Sounds simple, and I appreciate from experience a huge amount of prep and validation needs to be done in the background.

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#47
post #42
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some cases they don't have any practical ability to. The Texas winter storm resulted in a lot of scrap at semiconductor lines due to power loss. There are industries that are completely dependent on grid power. You can't generate enough on site to back up 100% of your operation. Think about how much power one EUV source consumes. The only reason Samsung is building additional factories in Texas is because the loca…

I have no idea how much power an EUV source consumes, but I’m surprised to hear that it’s more than a handful of kW. What’s the right ballpark?

ASML says 1.3 MW for a single system. So off by three orders of magnitude.

https://www.asml.com/en/news/stories/2024/a-sustainability-m...

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#48
post #42
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some cases they don't have any practical ability to. The Texas winter storm resulted in a lot of scrap at semiconductor lines due to power loss. There are industries that are completely dependent on grid power. You can't generate enough on site to back up 100% of your operation. Think about how much power one EUV source consumes. The only reason Samsung is building additional factories in Texas is because the loca…

I have no idea how much power an EUV source consumes, but I’m surprised to hear that it’s more than a handful of kW. What’s the right ballpark?

>They require up to 10.2 gigawatt hours per tool annually

First hit off google.

Assuming they run them 24/7 that amounts to a power usage a bit over 1 megawatt, but they could be pulsed for all I know and use quite a bit more

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#49
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that? Are turbines easier to speed regulate than diesel engines?

Yes, the huge rotating mass is inherently more stable than a diesel. They key to grid stability is mostly huge rotating mass, either producing or consuming.

Or I guess, by inference, huge battery banks.

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#50
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the huge rotating mass is inherently more stable than a diesel. They key to grid stability is mostly huge rotating mass, either producing or consuming.

Or I guess, by inference, huge battery banks.

Battery tech is an upstart in the grid stabilization world, the standard is actually huge flywheels https://www.gevernova.com/power-conversion/sites/default/fil...
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