Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

arstechnica.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 154 posts

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#31

Post by pjc50 »

amelius wrote: post #12
Animats wrote: post #8

Spain is mostly back up. Plant startup is only the first step.[1] It's load pickup. Here is a PJM training module on load pickup during system restoration.[2] It gives a sense of how touchy the process is. Power network control has good control over generation and transmission, but limited control over load. When load is turned on, there are transient loads with different time constants. There's a huge load for the f…

Sounds like these systems are extremely vulnerable to sabotage. But adding more complexity such as distributed digitally controlled loads will not necessarily make the situation much better.

In theory maybe, but Ukraine are doing a great job of keeping their grid up in a hot war despite attacks on power infrastructure.

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#32

Post by Zealotux »

showsover wrote: post #9

That was a fun 10 hours or so that we were without power in most of Barcelona. Some barrios had ~some~ power but most of us were without. The one thing that surprised me is how quickly rumors started about power being out in Portugal (true), France (true to an extent), Belgium (false), and the UK (false). Walking back home from work you heard the names of Trump being mentioned as well. It's a bit scary to personally…

I am in Barcelona too. The combination of no power and patchy internet was the perfect recipe for rumors to spread, which was fun to observe. I went for a walk since I couldn't work and saw tons of people socializing, drinking beers (more than usual), and young people playing without their phones. It'll be a special day to remember, I think.

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#33

Post by prox »

ahmedfromtunis wrote: post #11

We had something similar happen in Tunisia in 2002. The reliance on diesel turbines meant a very long rebooting process. As a result, the government invested heavily in installing gas turbines all over the country. When we had another blackout event in 2018(?), it only took an hour or so to get things back again.

I imagine a lot of sunshine in Tunisia (not too familiar with your country) , is there a big transition to solar?

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#34

Post by prox »

Zealotux wrote: post #32
showsover wrote: post #9

That was a fun 10 hours or so that we were without power in most of Barcelona. Some barrios had ~some~ power but most of us were without. The one thing that surprised me is how quickly rumors started about power being out in Portugal (true), France (true to an extent), Belgium (false), and the UK (false). Walking back home from work you heard the names of Trump being mentioned as well. It's a bit scary to personally…

I am in Barcelona too. The combination of no power and patchy internet was the perfect recipe for rumors to spread, which was fun to observe. I went for a walk since I couldn't work and saw tons of people socializing, drinking beers (more than usual), and young people playing without their phones. It'll be a special day to remember, I think.

Maybe make it a yearly event, turn off all power (like Earth Day) just for the socializing aspect.

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#35

Post by consp »

showsover wrote: post #30
AStonesThrow wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How warm is "too warm"? I find cold beer, and cold soft drinks as well, quite repulsive. I usually try to order without ice entirely, and if I receive any bottles or cans, I permit them to come to room temp before consumption. Refrigeration is sort of a scourge to those who enjoy food. We are so used to simply freezing our esophagus and not tasting anything! Food is kept cold because it lasts longer, not because it t…

I was referring to the fact that generally people prefer cold beer, not room temp beer.

Pedantic, but most beers should be drank (according to the manufacturers and experts) at 7-13c depending on type of beer. Exceptions always exist to confirm the rule. Which is above fridge and around "cellar" temperatures.

Unless you drink Schultenbrau, which tastes worse cold than at room temperature (/s, kind of).

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#36

Post by Zealotux »

prox wrote: post #34
Zealotux wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am in Barcelona too. The combination of no power and patchy internet was the perfect recipe for rumors to spread, which was fun to observe. I went for a walk since I couldn't work and saw tons of people socializing, drinking beers (more than usual), and young people playing without their phones. It'll be a special day to remember, I think.

Maybe make it a yearly event, turn off all power (like Earth Day) just for the socializing aspect.

I honestly thought we should make it a public holiday and shut down the electricity once a year, not so realistic unfortunately.

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#38

Post by consp »

_3u10 wrote: post #16
ashoeafoot wrote: post #10

How do energy intensive processes like aluminium smelters or window glass producers preven their machines from self destruction ?

Power guarantees and insurance. They are also frequently situated close to reliable power sources such as nuclear or hydro, usually fed by more than one generating station. A friend of mine lived close to a brick plant his power NEVER went out.

Anecdotal example: The, now closed, Aluminium plant here was build only because the government build a nuclear plant, which is still going. There was a coal plant next to it (closed now) as a backup for when nuclear was not available. Funny thing is most people thought the coal plant was the nuclear plant when driving by since it looks more like a plant, the nuclear dome structure is kind of hidden from the road and since natural water is used as cooling no big towers are close by.

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#39

Post by Mistletoe »

exar0815 wrote: post #14
ashoeafoot wrote: post #10

How do energy intensive processes like aluminium smelters or window glass producers preven their machines from self destruction ?

Can't answer for aluminium, but I can answer for window glass: One of our plants was threatened by massive flooding 2021, threatening the float glass oven (which doesn't float itself despite the name). It was closed off with insulation, turned off, and everyone hoped for the best and no steam explosion. In the end, only the cellars with the control equipment flooded and it could be gradually (as the control cabinets…

How did you find that much insulation quickly and what kind was it?

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#40

Post by showsover »

Zealotux wrote: post #32
showsover wrote: post #9

That was a fun 10 hours or so that we were without power in most of Barcelona. Some barrios had ~some~ power but most of us were without. The one thing that surprised me is how quickly rumors started about power being out in Portugal (true), France (true to an extent), Belgium (false), and the UK (false). Walking back home from work you heard the names of Trump being mentioned as well. It's a bit scary to personally…

I am in Barcelona too. The combination of no power and patchy internet was the perfect recipe for rumors to spread, which was fun to observe. I went for a walk since I couldn't work and saw tons of people socializing, drinking beers (more than usual), and young people playing without their phones. It'll be a special day to remember, I think.

I was actually considering going for a ride on the motorcycle today if the outage lasted another day. Beautiful weather, a tank full of gasoline, and no stress about work? Sign me up!
Post reply on HN