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Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

arstechnica.com

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Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#21

Post by jerven »

LunaSea wrote: post #18
exar0815 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't answer for aluminium, but I can answer for window glass: One of our plants was threatened by massive flooding 2021, threatening the float glass oven (which doesn't float itself despite the name). It was closed off with insulation, turned off, and everyone hoped for the best and no steam explosion. In the end, only the cellars with the control equipment flooded and it could be gradually (as the control cabinets…

Interesting! Does this mean that you could use intermittent energy sources, like solar power, to heat up the float glass oven during the day and it woul keep enough heat during the night so that it could keep running in the morning?

Yes, in theory, but your process control would be terrible, thus your product would also be terrible. Unless you invent something very clever.

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#22

Post by showsover »

xenospn wrote: post #19
showsover wrote: post #9

That was a fun 10 hours or so that we were without power in most of Barcelona. Some barrios had ~some~ power but most of us were without. The one thing that surprised me is how quickly rumors started about power being out in Portugal (true), France (true to an extent), Belgium (false), and the UK (false). Walking back home from work you heard the names of Trump being mentioned as well. It's a bit scary to personally…

I never have any cash on me. That would’ve sucked.

I spent my last 5 euros on a sandwich and a croissant to eat on the walk home. All in all a pretty decent experience.

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#23

Post by xnx »

echoangle wrote: post #17
exar0815 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't answer for aluminium, but I can answer for window glass: One of our plants was threatened by massive flooding 2021, threatening the float glass oven (which doesn't float itself despite the name). It was closed off with insulation, turned off, and everyone hoped for the best and no steam explosion. In the end, only the cellars with the control equipment flooded and it could be gradually (as the control cabinets…

Is the heater keeping the material liquid not enough to re-melt it again?

I'm guessing that liquid glass gets into some spots/crevices that it cannot be remelted from using built-in heat sources.

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#24

Post by rightbyte »

ahmedfromtunis wrote: post #11

We had something similar happen in Tunisia in 2002. The reliance on diesel turbines meant a very long rebooting process. As a result, the government invested heavily in installing gas turbines all over the country. When we had another blackout event in 2018(?), it only took an hour or so to get things back again.

Why is that? Are turbines easier to speed regulate than diesel engines?

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#25

Post by exar0815 »

LunaSea wrote: post #18
exar0815 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't answer for aluminium, but I can answer for window glass: One of our plants was threatened by massive flooding 2021, threatening the float glass oven (which doesn't float itself despite the name). It was closed off with insulation, turned off, and everyone hoped for the best and no steam explosion. In the end, only the cellars with the control equipment flooded and it could be gradually (as the control cabinets…

Interesting! Does this mean that you could use intermittent energy sources, like solar power, to heat up the float glass oven during the day and it woul keep enough heat during the night so that it could keep running in the morning?

Float glass is a continuous process, so it runs 24/7 and too much product is recycled into the smelter at the start again (Funnily, glass waste is actually a scarce resource). Getting the process dialed in to emit the desired quality is a long winded thing as far as i know (not involved in the process myself). Also, the heating is done with gas (LNG/CNG/H2) and electric in combination.

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#26

Post by ehnto »

_3u10 wrote: post #16
ashoeafoot wrote: post #10

How do energy intensive processes like aluminium smelters or window glass producers preven their machines from self destruction ?

Power guarantees and insurance. They are also frequently situated close to reliable power sources such as nuclear or hydro, usually fed by more than one generating station. A friend of mine lived close to a brick plant his power NEVER went out.

I had the same experience living near a hospital. The whole city has gone out a few times, and our grid was either still up, or is one of the first grids back up.

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#27

Post by exar0815 »

echoangle wrote: post #17
exar0815 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't answer for aluminium, but I can answer for window glass: One of our plants was threatened by massive flooding 2021, threatening the float glass oven (which doesn't float itself despite the name). It was closed off with insulation, turned off, and everyone hoped for the best and no steam explosion. In the end, only the cellars with the control equipment flooded and it could be gradually (as the control cabinets…

Is the heater keeping the material liquid not enough to re-melt it again?

Its not an oven alone, its a kiln that smelts up the components for glass of the desired recipe, then purs the glass on a long (~half a km) basin of molten tin where it stretches and cools slowly, pushing the solidifying mass down the basin until the end. Re-Melting it is as far as i know not possible, as the melting is done before the pouring. You can melt the tin again, but not the glass.

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#28

Post by MaoSYJ »

showsover wrote: post #9

That was a fun 10 hours or so that we were without power in most of Barcelona. Some barrios had ~some~ power but most of us were without. The one thing that surprised me is how quickly rumors started about power being out in Portugal (true), France (true to an extent), Belgium (false), and the UK (false). Walking back home from work you heard the names of Trump being mentioned as well. It's a bit scary to personally…

Most information was spread by car radios. Rest were people asking and talking to each other.

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#29

Post by BiteCode_dev »

jerven wrote: post #21
LunaSea wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting! Does this mean that you could use intermittent energy sources, like solar power, to heat up the float glass oven during the day and it woul keep enough heat during the night so that it could keep running in the morning?

Yes, in theory, but your process control would be terrible, thus your product would also be terrible. Unless you invent something very clever.

But that makes them superb heat battery, which is under used at the moment to store energy.

Re: Spain is about to face the challenge of a "black start"

#30

Post by showsover »

AStonesThrow wrote: post #20
showsover wrote: post #9

That was a fun 10 hours or so that we were without power in most of Barcelona. Some barrios had ~some~ power but most of us were without. The one thing that surprised me is how quickly rumors started about power being out in Portugal (true), France (true to an extent), Belgium (false), and the UK (false). Walking back home from work you heard the names of Trump being mentioned as well. It's a bit scary to personally…

How warm is "too warm"? I find cold beer, and cold soft drinks as well, quite repulsive. I usually try to order without ice entirely, and if I receive any bottles or cans, I permit them to come to room temp before consumption. Refrigeration is sort of a scourge to those who enjoy food. We are so used to simply freezing our esophagus and not tasting anything! Food is kept cold because it lasts longer, not because it t…

I was referring to the fact that generally people prefer cold beer, not room temp beer.
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