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LibreLingo – FOSS Alternative to Duolingo

librelingo.app

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Re: LibreLingo – FOSS Alternative to Duolingo

#31

Post by bornfreddy »

mawadev wrote: post #27
Tor3 wrote: post #4

There wasn't much to read there, but why aspire to be an alternative to Duolingo of all things? Duolingo focuses on learning by translation, basically. It's even in the name: "Duolingo". It's an utterly broken approach to learning languages, except for the very initial phase where you're getting just enough to move on to modern methods (i.e. avoid translation like the plague, to start with). Which is exactly why a co…

I like how this type of critique pops up when someone sits down and makes a free/libre version of an app with a flawed premise.

Well, you can also understand it as "while you are at it, maybe try to fix the fundamental flaws in DuoLingo?". DuoLingo is great at keeping learners motivated, but at learning - not so much (in my experience).

Re: LibreLingo – FOSS Alternative to Duolingo

#32

Post by npinsker »

gary17the wrote: post #28
est wrote: post #14

been using Duolingo in the 10s and last year, I gave up because the course seems very repetitive. Even if I got the answer right 10 out of 10 times, the same question kept coming. It almost looks like the app is trying very hard to make me stay as long as possible, instead of study as effecient as possible. So for a good alternative app, is there a dynamic course pace I can adapt to?

> the same question kept coming I was under the same impression, but later the problem disappeared. You have to give Duolingo a couple of months of learning effort first, so that Duolingo has a larger base of sentences that you should already understand.

I used the app for 6 months (granted this was around 5 years ago) and the problem never disappeared for me.

To answer the question, it depends on which language you're learning. Japanese and Spanish probably have the most resources for English-speaking learners.

Re: LibreLingo – FOSS Alternative to Duolingo

#34

Post by laurentlb »

joshdavham wrote: post #9
devrandoom wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the modern methods and what's to back up they're better?

> What are the modern methods It depends on the community, but the current meta among serious (non-casual) language learners is 1) comprehensible input, 2) extensive reading, 3) sentence mining, 4) spaced repetition + active recall > what's to back up they're better? Unfortunately... just the anecdotal experiences reported by these learners. I've talked with hundreds of successful language learners who reached actual…

I’ve been thinking about this a lot and I agree: focusing on input, especially through comprehensible reading, seems like a solid approach.

One resource I like for finding comprehensible input is: https://comprehensibleinputwiki.org/wiki/Main_Page

One document I found particularly helpful is Paul Nation's "What Do You Need to Know to Learn a Foreign Language?": https://wgtn.ac.nz/lals/resources/paul-nations-resources/pau...

It has a lot of practical advice. In particular, he recommends reading graded readers books.

Inspired by that, I’ve also been building a free (open-source code + CC-licensed texts), community-driven website for interactive graded readers. Think Choose Your Own Adventure in your target language: you read simple stories, make choices, listen to audio, and check translations only when needed.

It’s still early (just a couple of stories so far) and definitely not a full language learning solution, but the goal is to create enjoyable input for learners. Would love your feedback if try it out: https://lingostories.org

Re: LibreLingo – FOSS Alternative to Duolingo

#35

Post by internet_points »

gary17the wrote: post #22
Tor3 wrote: post #4

There wasn't much to read there, but why aspire to be an alternative to Duolingo of all things? Duolingo focuses on learning by translation, basically. It's even in the name: "Duolingo". It's an utterly broken approach to learning languages, except for the very initial phase where you're getting just enough to move on to modern methods (i.e. avoid translation like the plague, to start with). Which is exactly why a co…

> [learning by translation] [is] an utterly broken approach to learning languages I speak one foreign language fluently, which I learned in a traditional classroom environment with a teacher, and recently started to learn another language with Duolingo. I actually find their "learning by translation" method possibly easier (and definitely less boring) than the traditional "keep learning all the different grammar comb…

> traditional "keep learning all the different grammar combinations first" approach

That's not better than Duolingo, no.

Duolingo is OK initially (especially if you need to learn a new alphabet), but then quickly move on to

* https://www.languagetransfer.org/ (will give you a good understanding of the principles of the language but without feeling like a grammar book)

* https://www.pimsleur.com/ or similar audio courses (expensive, but thorough, seem to be informed by spaced repetition principles, I remember what I learn here)

* and when you've got the basics down, slow speaking podcasts or youtube which will increase your vocab and understanding greatly

* lots of youtube/netflix (use https://addons.mozilla.org/fy-NL/firefox/addon/youtube-dual-... or one of the many addons that give more control over subtitles, eventually only foreign subtitles or none)

* simple translated stories (I don't know what these are called, but you'll typically have first a story with translations interspersed, then the full story without any guide). https://www.lingq.com/en/ is a site that does this for you, though I guess you can use llm's this way too now

You want lots of input. You also want some deliberate practice making sentences, though in smaller portions than the input.

Re: LibreLingo – FOSS Alternative to Duolingo

#36

Post by AnonC »

bornfreddy wrote: post #26
simonbarker87 wrote: post #12

Going to plug Language Transfer again, an excellent free app that is a much better way to learn a language than the DuoLingo approach.

Thank you! Is there any advantage to using the app instead of just playing the audio files directly?

I found this in the app’s description:

> This app provides the same audio available for free on languagetransfer.org, but allows you to download tracks in advance, save your progress, and listen with your phone locked.

> We collect some anonymous usage data so we can improve the app and learn about how users are engaging with the lessons. You can learn more in the About section of the app, or turn off this data collection in the Settings

Re: LibreLingo – FOSS Alternative to Duolingo

#37

Post by gary17the »

tossandthrow wrote: post #29
gary17the wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [learning by translation] [is] an utterly broken approach to learning languages I speak one foreign language fluently, which I learned in a traditional classroom environment with a teacher, and recently started to learn another language with Duolingo. I actually find their "learning by translation" method possibly easier (and definitely less boring) than the traditional "keep learning all the different grammar comb…

This is a falde dichotomy. Focusing on grammar is not the opposite. If you follow the approach in "Fluent forever" by Gabriel Wyner you will focus on 1) sentences and 2) speech from day one. The idea is that you really don't want to focus on learning translation but learn the language . Ie. It is not important that you know how to translate horse to Pferd. What is important is that you know how communicate the concep…

> This is a false dichotomy. Focusing on grammar is not the opposite.

I don't follow you. I did not claim that focusing on grammar was a literal opposite of anything. I claimed that in my case "repetitive learning by example" turned out to be less boring than "repetitive learning by memorizing grammar".

In order to translate a randomly generated (thus never seen before, non-memorized) sentence from one language to another you have to understand the grammar in order to create a valid combination of words for your translation.

Re: LibreLingo – FOSS Alternative to Duolingo

#38

Post by est »

freetonik wrote: post #23
est wrote: post #14

been using Duolingo in the 10s and last year, I gave up because the course seems very repetitive. Even if I got the answer right 10 out of 10 times, the same question kept coming. It almost looks like the app is trying very hard to make me stay as long as possible, instead of study as effecient as possible. So for a good alternative app, is there a dynamic course pace I can adapt to?

Which course? The quality of different language courses on Duolingo differs a lot. For example, the Finnish language course is very bad, full of useless words and nonsensical phrases like "The cat is a viking". In contrast, the Swedish course (which happens to be the 2nd official language of Finland) is amazing and full of phrases immediately useful in daily life. A few modules in, Finnish Duolingo is all e.g. "My mo…

German and Arabic course.

So in other words, the course is programmed by a human?

Well I hope with today's AI tech the course should be highly customizable. I don't want to learn "The cat is a viking" 100 times.

Re: LibreLingo – FOSS Alternative to Duolingo

#39

Post by xandrius »

est wrote: post #14

been using Duolingo in the 10s and last year, I gave up because the course seems very repetitive. Even if I got the answer right 10 out of 10 times, the same question kept coming. It almost looks like the app is trying very hard to make me stay as long as possible, instead of study as effecient as possible. So for a good alternative app, is there a dynamic course pace I can adapt to?

Duolingo is to feel like you're learning not for actually learning.

Great for telling people you are doing something, that's all.

For me, the best has been to get a anki deck to get the most basic 1000 words, once finished, go find a tutor to speak 1h a week on Preply and then create a personal Anki deck with words you encounter.

That has been the easiest way to improve for me. And this is for Japanese, one of the hardest languages I tried learning.

Re: LibreLingo – FOSS Alternative to Duolingo

#40

Post by joshvm »

internet_points wrote: post #35
gary17the wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [learning by translation] [is] an utterly broken approach to learning languages I speak one foreign language fluently, which I learned in a traditional classroom environment with a teacher, and recently started to learn another language with Duolingo. I actually find their "learning by translation" method possibly easier (and definitely less boring) than the traditional "keep learning all the different grammar comb…

> traditional "keep learning all the different grammar combinations first" approach That's not better than Duolingo, no. Duolingo is OK initially (especially if you need to learn a new alphabet), but then quickly move on to * https://www.languagetransfer.org/ (will give you a good understanding of the principles of the language but without feeling like a grammar book) * https://www.pimsleur.com/ or similar audio cour…

Translated stories are sometimes called Graded Readers, you can buy them aligned with most common language levels (CEFR, JLPT, etc)

Subtitles though, tricky. The sites that sync with Netflix are probably better than whatever Netflix offers, or whatever you can get that comes with your video files. Subtitles for entertainment are often abbreviated, which is fine for your native language, but it doesn't help if you want to look up a sentence. You need the crowdsourced ones. YouTube can be better in this regard, especially if they're automatically generated. There are also lists of video games floating around that rank games based on the availability of a script, replayable dialogue, that sort of thing. See Game Gengo for a Japanese example [1] (great channel, he also does lessons with all the vocab + grammar in context using games).

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXICXCSIfrQ

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