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Qwen3: Think deeper, act faster

qwenlm.github.io

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Re: Qwen3: Think deeper, act faster

#171
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except, very literally, data is a collection of single points (ie what we call "anecdotes").

Except that the plural of anecdotes is definitely not data, because without controlling for confounding variables and sampling biases, you will get garbage.

Garbage data is still data, and data (garbage or not) is still more valuable than a single anecdote. Insights can only be distilled from data, by first applying those controls you mentioned.

Re: Qwen3: Think deeper, act faster

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, Wittgenstein's rule following paradox, Shannon sampling theorem, the law that infinite polynomials pass through any finite set of points (does that have a name?), etc, etc. are all equivalent at the limit to the idea that no amount of anecdotes-per-se add up to anything other than coincidence

No, no, no. Each of them gives you information.

In the formal, information-theory sense, they literally don't, at least not on their own without further constraints (like band-limiting or bounded polynomial degree or the like)

Re: Qwen3: Think deeper, act faster

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, no, no. Each of them gives you information.

In the formal, information-theory sense, they literally don't, at least not on their own without further constraints (like band-limiting or bounded polynomial degree or the like)

...which you always have.

Re: Qwen3: Think deeper, act faster

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some calculation around heat loss and required heat expenditure to reheat per material or something?

Unless I'm missing something holding it hot is pure waste.

Maybe it will help to have a fluid analogy. You have a leaky bucket. What wastes more water, letting all the water leak out and then refilling it from scratch, or keeping it topped up? The answer depends on how bad the leak is vs how long you are required to maintain the bucket level. At least that’s how I interpret this puzzle.

Re: Qwen3: Think deeper, act faster

#175

The benchmark results are so incredibly good they are hard to believe. A 30B model that's competitive with Gemini 2.5 Pro and way better than Gemma 27B? Update: I tested "ollama run qwen3:30b" (the MoE) locally and while it thought much it wasn't that smart. After 3 follow up questions it ended up in an infinite loop. I just tried again, and it ended up in an infinite loop immediately, just a single prompt, no follow…

Another thing you’re running into is the context window. Ollama sets a low context window by default, like 4096 tokens IIRC. The reasoning process can easily take more than that, at which point it is forgetting most of its reasoning and any prior messages, and it can get stuck in loops. The solution is to raise the context window to something reasonable, such as 32k.

Instead of this very high latency remote debugging process with strangers on the internet, you could just try out properly configured models on the hosted Qwen Chat. Obviously the privacy implications are different, but running models locally is still a fiddly thing even if it is easier than it used to be, and configuration errors are often mistaken for bad model performance. If the models meet your expectations in a properly configured cloud environment, then you can put in the effort to figure out local model hosting.

Re: Qwen3: Think deeper, act faster

#176

The benchmark results are so incredibly good they are hard to believe. A 30B model that's competitive with Gemini 2.5 Pro and way better than Gemma 27B? Update: I tested "ollama run qwen3:30b" (the MoE) locally and while it thought much it wasn't that smart. After 3 follow up questions it ended up in an infinite loop. I just tried again, and it ended up in an infinite loop immediately, just a single prompt, no follow…

Please check your num_ctx setting. Ollama defaults to a 2048 context length and silently truncates the prompt to fit. Maddening.

Re: Qwen3: Think deeper, act faster

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I similarly have a small, simple spatial reasoning problem that only reasoning models get right, and not all of them, and which Qwen3 on max reasoning still gets wrong. > I put a coin in a cup and slam it upside-down on a glass table. I can't see the coin because the cup is over it. I slide a mirror under the table and see heads. What will I see if I take the cup (and the mirror) away?

Simple Claude 3.5 with no reasoning gets it right.

Neat, because 3.7 doesn't.

Re: Qwen3: Think deeper, act faster

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of variables here such as your hardware's memory bandwidth, speed at which at processes tensors etc. A basic thing to remember: Any given dense model would require X GB of memory at 8-bit quantization, where X is the number of params (of course I am simplifying a little by not counting context size). Quantization is just 'precision' of the model, 8-bit generally works really well. Generally speaking,…

4 bit is absolutely fine . I know this is crazy to here because the big iron folks still debate 16 vs 32 and 8 vs 16 is near verboten in public conversation. I contribute to llama.cpp and have seen many many efforts to measure evaluation perf of various quants, and no matter which way it was sliced (ranging from subjective volunteers doing A/B voting on responses over months, to objective object perplexity loss) Q4 i…

4 bit is fine conditional to the task. This condition is related to the level of nuance in understanding required for the response to be sensible.

All the models I have explored seem to capture nuance in understanding in the floats. It makes sense, as initially it will regress to the mean and slowly lock in lower and lower significance figures to capture subtleties and natural variance in things.

So, the further you stray from average conversation, the worse a model will do, as a function of it's quantisation.

So, if you don't need nuance, subtly, etc. say for a document summary bot for technical things, 4 bit might genuinely be fine. However, if you want something that can deal with highly subjective material where answers need to be tailored to a user, using in-context learning of user preferences etc. then 4 bit tends to struggle badly unless the user aligns closely with the training distribution's mean.

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