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Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

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Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#411
post #13
post #10

Portugal has no electricity as we speak. Funny enough telcos and 4G/5G are fine for now, I'm guessing batteries and diesel backups kicked in and are doing their job.

Yeah, we just told you that via Signal - that’s how we built the networks :) (No relation to the other infamous Signal chat :)) There should be 4-8 hours of battery backup on every site - at least.

Wow! Battery capacity has gotten cheap.

It's always fascinated me during disasters how independent telecomm can be. Kudos for all the engineering that went into it!

I.e. even when any other conceivable dependency is down, the networks keep running.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#412

Grids are tricky, because the electric socket is kind of a leaky abstraction for heavy plant machinery in turbines of thermal plants, load balancing, synchronisation, and a gazillion other things I really don't understand. Is a grid built on renewables and batteries somehow more resilient? Solid state things tend to be less fiddly, hence my question. I remember reading at one point in the past that renewables were ac…

> Is a grid built on renewables and batteries somehow more resilient?

So this is a complicated subject in itself, and a full answer won't fit inside this textbox. Some bullet points:

- Grid stability is maintained by batteries, but not literally. The "batteries" in question are typically rotating generators, i.e. turbines, wind, literally anything where you have an electrical coupling to a lot of physical inertia. That's what keeps the grid running second-to-second; while a power plant might pretend it's outputting a constant 4MW, it actually shifts noticeably from moment to moment. The kinetic energy of the generator helps balance that out.

- Going up from the sub-second range, an overload of the generator obviously would cause the shaft to slow down, dropping the frequency and causing brownouts. Brownouts are bad and can damage the grid, so typically breakers will disconnect if it falls below 49Hz; a 2% drop.

- Baseload plants can't cope with this, as they take multiple minutes to spool up. Minimum; for something like a coal power plant, where you have to shove in additional coal and wait for it to catch fire, it's going quite a few minutes. This is what defines 'baseload'.

- Peaker power plants can increase (or decrease) their mechanical power production in a matter of seconds. These days that typically means gas turbines, though hydroelectric power is even better, and nuclear power could be used for peaker plants -- but isn't; most nuclear reactor designs outside of the navy is a baseload design. France does have some load-following designs, and we need more of those.

- Wind turbines can't increase their output, flat out, but they can decrease it (by feathering, or by using brakes). This is good enough, except this would turn them into 'peaker plants' that can't help with peaks. If we had enough wind turbines to cover 100% of the load then we'd technically be fine, but economically speaking that doesn't work; they'd be at less than 10% power most of the time.

- Wind turbines have rotating shafts, but a lot of the time they produce DC power, linked through inverters, which removes that benefit and makes them act like solar panels in effect. However, this is a purely economic issue; they can trivially be upgraded to support grid stability if the pricing scheme will pay for it.

- Solar panels are worse: They have no inertia! There is no rotating shaft there to cover sub-second usage spikes. That's where complaints about 'renewables causing reduction of grid stability' come from, along with issues like domestic solar needing to backfeed power through distribution lines and transformers that aren't necessarily designed for that.

- But batteries can absolutely help. The kinetic energy of a rotating turbine isn't actually that big; it's not that expensive to pair a solar panel with a battery to build a grid-forming system that acts the same way a kinetic power plant would.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#413
post #199

Older readers may remeber the Northeastern blackout of 2003 in the US and Canada that was caused by cascading overloading, I believe originally triggered by high loads due to hot weather and poor vegetation maintenance under lines. I was an an adjacent area at the time and iirc we were saved by our nuclear operator releasing some insane amount of steam to bring the supply down and avoid more overloading. https://en.m…

That was a mad few days. We were stuck on campus. Water ran out by the next day. And students were using water from the campus fountain.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#414
post #403
post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Report on a smaller event in the UK: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/investigation-9-august... (see linked pdf) That started from a combination of a lightning strike and generator trip, but turned into a local cascade failure as lots of distributed generation noticed that the frequency was under 49Hz and disconnected itself. I suspect the Spanish situation will be similar - inability to properly contain a frequ…

Is 50Hz really that important these days – i.e. more important than maintaining power? (Honest naive question.)

Frequency is health of the grid. If it's an entire hz off of where it should be something is massively wrong. Most generating equipment will trip on a deviation that bad.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#415
post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That wasn't tree falling in Ohio, that was overloaded line sagged and shorted into a tree, compounded with several other factors that contributed to the grid instability and the inability of the grid operator to realize how unstable the grid was.

"Same difference" to use an Irish turn of phrase. If a short to ground takes out power to an extensive area does it mater what touched what?

Yes, it absolutely does.

A tree falling can be addressed by vegetation management and trimming. A power line sagging because of excess heat is operator error.

These are not remotely the same.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#416
post #242

[flagged]

While I don't particularly like twitter (X), in a situation like this it probably has a better reach than the website of REE. That said, twitter should allow for official profiles and organizations to have their tweets (xs?) made public.

You’re kidding right? The overwhelming majority of people do NOT use X or have accounts there. We are in a bubble. (Not making a Musk point here as it was the same before the “exodus”)

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#417
post #403
post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Report on a smaller event in the UK: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/investigation-9-august... (see linked pdf) That started from a combination of a lightning strike and generator trip, but turned into a local cascade failure as lots of distributed generation noticed that the frequency was under 49Hz and disconnected itself. I suspect the Spanish situation will be similar - inability to properly contain a frequ…

Is 50Hz really that important these days – i.e. more important than maintaining power? (Honest naive question.)

Frequency is effectively more important than voltage. Or rather it collapses first. Frequency reduction for a rotary generator means that more energy is being taken out than the rotary shaft energy is being put in, so it is effectively an early warning that voltage is about to drop.

Frequency coordination is absolutely critical, via phase coordination. A large generator must not get significantly out of phase. So frequency going out of spec triggers the generator to "trip" (disconnect).

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#418

In Portugal here. Lost power about 1 hour ago. Reading the news while batteries last.

Amazing/curious that all the infrastructure to feed news to your phone still works. I can imagine a poorly-built systems would have some infrastructure without UPSes, and in all that chain of technology, there'll be an element or more without power. Not saying Spain/Portugal would necessarily be more prone to have poorly-built infrastructure, I assume the whole world runs on half-assery.

I believe it was 10 years ago or something, we lost power in Turkey. I mean the entire country for around 10 hours.

Data, cellular etc everything kept working. But at some point I guess the generators and batteries started to fail and capacity degraded.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#419
post #403
post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Report on a smaller event in the UK: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/investigation-9-august... (see linked pdf) That started from a combination of a lightning strike and generator trip, but turned into a local cascade failure as lots of distributed generation noticed that the frequency was under 49Hz and disconnected itself. I suspect the Spanish situation will be similar - inability to properly contain a frequ…

Is 50Hz really that important these days – i.e. more important than maintaining power? (Honest naive question.)

Absolutely. The frequency needs to be maintained between 49.8 and 50.2 Hz, or the situation starts spiraling out of control freakishly fast.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#420
post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the time, the grid is reliable. How much investment do we actually want to prevent a few hours of downtime once in a blue moon? And even if we do want to invest in large amount of grid storage (which we would need to anyway, if we want to transition to renewables), I'm not sure pushing this down to the individual house is sensible. Its a great way to limit economies of scale and make maintenance/inspection ha…

Mandating battery storage is nonsense. Making the regulatory system better for it is not, though; it would be good to make it possible for consumer battery systems to do "islanding" properly so they can be true backups.

Or at least not making it illegal. Regulate it all you want, make sure it's safe, but please let's let homeowners install a transfer switch if they're willing to pay for it.

In a longer outage it'd be a massive benefit to have even just a few houses here and there that retain power.

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