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Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

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Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#331
post #167

> "I currently don't have any internet service and just €15 in my wallet - I can't withdraw any money from the ATM," she added. from: https://news.sky.com/story/large-parts-of-spain-and-portugal... This is literally the whistleblowers about cashless society have been warning everyone about for well over a decade now.

[deleted]

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#333
post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't we used to pump steam around for heating and now homes have individual furnaces? If the cost for this were about the cost of a furnace I don't see why this wouldn't be viable. I bought a generator for just this situation.

That's a great example of why this is a bad idea. District heating is a lot more efficient than using individual heat sources. Especially so when the heat being used is heat that would otherwise go to waste (e.g. waste heat from industrial processes).

I get the efficiency obsession, this being an engineer forum, but aren't we talking about resilience?

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#334
post #329

This sounds big enough to require a black start. Unfortunately, those are slow and difficult. If an entire nation trips offline then every generator station disconnects itself from the grid and the grid itself snaps apart into islands. To bring it back you have to disconnect consumer loads and then re-energize a small set of plants that have dedicated black start capability. Thermal plants require energy to start up…

It seems Spain lost 15GW of load, but is still running 10GW of load: https://transparency.entsoe.eu/load-domain/r2/totalLoadR2/sh... Would this suggest the grid hasn't snapped apart, or is it just not possible to tell from the data? Coal, pumped hydro, and nuclear generation all went to 0 around the same time, but presumably that's those sources being disconnected from the grid to balance demand? https://transparency…

They're definitely doing a black start:

https://x.com/RedElectricaREE/status/1916818043235164267

We are beginning to recover power in the north and south of the peninsula, which is key to gradually addressing the electricity supply. This process involves the gradual energization of the transmission grid as the generating units are connected.

I see load dropping to zero on that graph, or rather, load data disappears an hour ago.

If the grid frequency goes too far out of range then power stations trip automatically, it's not an explicit decision anyone takes and it doesn't balance load, quite the opposite. A station tripping makes the problem worse as the frequency drops even further as the load gets shared between the remaining stations, which is why grids experience cascading failure. The disconnection into islands is a defense mechanism designed to stop equipment being too badly damaged and to isolate the outage.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#335
post #185
post #167

> "I currently don't have any internet service and just €15 in my wallet - I can't withdraw any money from the ATM," she added. from: https://news.sky.com/story/large-parts-of-spain-and-portugal... This is literally the whistleblowers about cashless society have been warning everyone about for well over a decade now.

And this is a trial for how a Carrington event will look like.

I just look to Gaza strip as an example how society continues operating under extreme adversity from the western powers, incl. total lack of electricity distribution for more than a year and a half and full blockade of water, food, and medicine.

No need for imaginary scenarios.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#337
post #9

A full nationwide power outage affecting not one but three [0] countries. Sounds like a major infrastructure risk given that it is possible for more than one country to experience a full loss of power. EDIT: Andorra is also affected, so that is three. [0] https://www.lavanguardia.com/vida/20250428/10624908/caida-ge...

Yeah I've been wondering why this seems so centralized. I'd think power would be more decentralized.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#339
post #59

Apparently a local grid overload near France and a cascading failure down the Spanish network, but radio and newspapers don’t agree on root cause. Of course there is a lot of noise. For instance, one reporter asked one of the government flunkies whether it could be a cyberattack and they turned his noncommittal “maybe, we don’t know” into “government says cyberattack may be ongoing”. Be careful of idiot reporters out…

[dead]

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#340

I'm going with: never attribute to malice what can be explained by ... an incredibly complex system that can fall over even if no-one's being stupid. I would want very strong evidence before I believe this is an attack. There is precedent for major power outages, a huge majority of which are not malicious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_power_outages I remember the day when the Swiss railway power networ…

a.k.a. Hanlon's Razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor
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