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Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

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Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#171
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like an incredibly expensive solution to a problem that could be tackled more efficiently at a larger scale.

Didn't we used to pump steam around for heating and now homes have individual furnaces? If the cost for this were about the cost of a furnace I don't see why this wouldn't be viable. I bought a generator for just this situation.

Plenty of places still do, and in those places district heating still is usually the cheapest source of heat.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#172
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the time, the grid is reliable. How much investment do we actually want to prevent a few hours of downtime once in a blue moon? And even if we do want to invest in large amount of grid storage (which we would need to anyway, if we want to transition to renewables), I'm not sure pushing this down to the individual house is sensible. Its a great way to limit economies of scale and make maintenance/inspection ha…

> I'm not sure pushing this down to the individual house is sensible. why not? Having distributed buffers ought to make the system more resilient in most cases wont it? Not to mention that these home level batteries can be used to smooth out power usage and lower peak loads. In fact, having an EV car act as this same battery would be an even more efficient use of resources.

Why not? Maybe because I'd rather not have to spend that much of my own capital on something I'd generally never use. I'd rather not spend the maintenance on that thing I'd generally never use. And finally, I'd rather not take up the space in my home with a large thing I'd generally never use.

I'd prefer for the power coming to my house to just not go out. The grid operator can install batteries in places other than my home. The grid operator can maintain them for me. The grid operator can get cheaper loans than I can for installing them, they're staffed with supposed experts in this stuff, just have them handle it on their premises.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#173

In Portugal here. Lost power about 1 hour ago. Reading the news while batteries last.

Amazing/curious that all the infrastructure to feed news to your phone still works. I can imagine a poorly-built systems would have some infrastructure without UPSes, and in all that chain of technology, there'll be an element or more without power. Not saying Spain/Portugal would necessarily be more prone to have poorly-built infrastructure, I assume the whole world runs on half-assery.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#176
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the time, the grid is reliable. How much investment do we actually want to prevent a few hours of downtime once in a blue moon? And even if we do want to invest in large amount of grid storage (which we would need to anyway, if we want to transition to renewables), I'm not sure pushing this down to the individual house is sensible. Its a great way to limit economies of scale and make maintenance/inspection ha…

> I'm not sure pushing this down to the individual house is sensible. why not? Having distributed buffers ought to make the system more resilient in most cases wont it? Not to mention that these home level batteries can be used to smooth out power usage and lower peak loads. In fact, having an EV car act as this same battery would be an even more efficient use of resources.

The peak load of a house is substantially higher than the per-house peak load of a city. People don't all turn on their ovens/dryers/hairdriers at the same time.

You could distribute this capacity at each house and feed it back to the grid during peak times. But is TCO of 1000 * 100kWh same price as 100MWh worth of capacity?

If you're going to have the battery anyway(a car) its hard to compete with, but once you need more capacity, I'm not sure it makes sense to distribute it quite as much.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#178

Europe still has many megawatts of solar with inverters that disconnect when detecting any grid disruption. This is the absolute worst thing to do when there is a shortage of power - you immediately make the shortage worse and more grid disconnects. The real fix is a grid with second by second pricing based on system frequency, and every individual user allowed to set a daily 'spend cap' of euros/dollars, letting the…

This comment is Dunning-Kruger effect in action… Believe it or not, but maintaining an electricity grid is a massive undertaking, and the people in charge of it knows the topic much better than you do. The problem isn't a market problem, it's a physics problem: having a synchronized grid of AC current with many producers over a wide area is a real challenge, even when the underlying issue is resolved it takes a lot o…

Having such interdependent grids seems like a market or political problem not a physics problem to me.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#179
post #20

Here's a "real time" map of electricity production and flow between countries: https://app.electricitymaps.com/map/72h/hourly Would be interesting to see if it will register here.

[flagged]

Currently says due to power outage data might be inaccurate for Spain and Portugal.
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