Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's not a citation.
No its not. It's commonsense.
The comment you were replying to was not asking for common sense.
ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation
841–850 of 908 posts
Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation
#842Earlier quoted context omitted.
>There's a poor child that's being withheld access to their medication and to their oncologists, and the adults in the room—adults in uniforms, adults with guns, adults in suits and adults in black robes—all of these adults are doing their adult things with their adult words, and the sum total of all that is the child still is without their cancer medicine. People like to blame these sort of situations on leadership…
> every individual involved in this is making a personal choice to let this happen. To be fair, you and I are involved. I'm on vacation in Mexico. You're presumably also doing something comfortable. We've had, in the span of days, a judge arrested in her court room and multiple U.S. citizens--children, no less---illegally detained and deported. It's blowing my mind to say this. But the right is clearly using violence…
> a judge arrested in her court room
But she did something illegal? Like while I agree with her ideals, if she did something illegal than she can get arrested.
Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation
#843Earlier quoted context omitted.
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If people of the past would have followed that argument, we would not have seen the declaration of human rights of the French Revolution, not have had the civil war, slaves might still be slaves. Hitler’s successors would reign Europe. Sometimes good people have to do what is necessary, even when it means to make things worse initially. No, are we in such a moment now? I don’t know, but that’s the problem, right? You…
> Hitler’s successors would reign Europe.
> Sometimes good people have to do what is necessary, even when it means to make things worse initially.
> No, are we in such a moment now? I don’t know, but that’s the problem, right? You never know at the time.
The other problem is that literal Hitler thought the exact same thing, which is why Mein Kampf got written in a prison.
I wonder if the people four years ago chanting to hang Trump's VP (for accepting having lost the election) also thought they were in the right…
(Not that it matters either way if those people are "mistake theory" (power) rather than "conflict theory" (truth), because I expect all clothes to eventually be worn by various conflict theorists).
Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation
#844Earlier quoted context omitted.
> becoming the thing which you hate More an honest reading of the history of power. If one side seizes a previously norms-gated tactic and is allowed to use it, the other side either seizes it, too, or ceases to exist. (Obviously, the preferred outcome is this is not allowed to stand.)
I totally agree that is the common and probable outcome. However, is not the exclusive outcome, nor does it have to be enthusiastically supported. Norm erosion and law breaking often see tit for tat retaliation with the notable exception of when norms and order are productively restored. I follow your comments because I find them balanced and often insightful, even (or perhaps especially) when I disagree. For this re…
I’m frankly surprised where I find myself. But I don’t see another move.
> even if it is in the form of retaliation
The most important part is messaging the expectation of retaliation ex ante: If you break habeus, we—too—will use that power. (And it won’t be our moderates who will be the first to seize it!)
Otherwise, we have a two-party system where one team seizes advantage through force while the other pudges along hamstrung by norms only they respect. Also: once a norm is eroded, it’s impossible to regain it through norms alone. (I don’t recall any historical example of norms escalation being peacefully rolled back. It takes a shock for people in the moment and in the future to be able to point to for why that norm is necessary. Somehow the Nazis, Japanese internment and the Argentinian economy aren’t enough anymore.)
Unfortunately, the norms being violated now probably require a Constitutional amendment to reïnstate. So I’m pessimistic about an off-ramp versus this being the new status quo. Maybe both sides being clear about what suspending habeus really means is the kick in the ass America needs to restrict pardon powers and/or give the Congress and courts limited direct enforcement authority. (Or maybe, as it was with Jackson, it will be Trump’s economic ineptitude that brings the shock.)
Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation
#845Earlier quoted context omitted.
Birthright citizenship is explicitly included in the 14’th amendment of the US constitution. Technically the constitution could be amended again. But if we include wildly controversial constitutional amendments that one of our parties would be completely opposed in the list of possibilities, the conversation will quickly get silly.
> But if we include wildly controversial constitutional amendments that one of our parties would be completely opposed in the list of possibilities, the conversation will quickly get silly. You're this close from becoming a dictatorship, things could become very silly regardless. If anything, I'd say Trump is just a silly Sulla. Sulla was somewhat benevolent, he retired. But he paved the way for Caesar and Augustus (…
I mean, I’m worried about the trajectory of the country generally. But, we need to be able to talk about the actual laws and process (this assumes we still have laws and processes).
If the country turns into a dictatorship, then it is just rule by dictatorial fiat. But in that case this whole conversation is sort of pointless because we wouldn’t have democracy and our opinions about how things should be run wouldn’t matter anymore.
Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation
#846Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation
#847Earlier quoted context omitted.
> in order to sway voter demographics in their favour [citation needed]
Its interesting you said "citation needed" on that part; I would have focused first on the completely bogus estimate of the number of illegal entries that occurred during the administration, which is about 6 times the actual estimated amount, and in the neighborhood of (a little above) the high-end estimates the total undocumented population . But, yeah, the whole thing is just repeating partisan propaganda with no f…
"the actual estimated amount"
[citation needed]
Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation
#848Earlier quoted context omitted.
> by all metrics, immigrants are a net positive to society. What about wage suppression?
In study after study, immigrants actually raise the wages of citizen workers by taking the lower paying jobs while citizens can then be more productive. The idea they suppress wages is just another form of the ‘lump of labor’ fallacy. https://www.jstor.org/stable/41426727 https://www.dagliano.unimi.it/media/12-Ottaviano-Peri-2008.p...
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Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation
#849Earlier quoted context omitted.
In study after study, immigrants actually raise the wages of citizen workers by taking the lower paying jobs while citizens can then be more productive. The idea they suppress wages is just another form of the ‘lump of labor’ fallacy. https://www.jstor.org/stable/41426727 https://www.dagliano.unimi.it/media/12-Ottaviano-Peri-2008.p...
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The CIS is a joke of an organization and unsurprisingly their “research” is just the same vibe racism you can find on any right wing message board. Camarota previously claimed in a similarly ‘published’ paper that 2/3 of the jobs created under Obama went to illegal immigrants. Not remotely a serious person.
Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation
#850Earlier quoted context omitted.
[flagged]
The CIS is a joke of an organization and unsurprisingly their “research” is just the same vibe racism you can find on any right wing message board. Camarota previously claimed in a similarly ‘published’ paper that 2/3 of the jobs created under Obama went to illegal immigrants. Not remotely a serious person.
>The CIS is a joke of an organization and unsurprisingly their “research” is just the same vibe racism you can find on any right wing message board.
The research is well founded and not debunked. There are numerous other sources cited besides CIS. Dr. Camarota earned a PhD in public policy analysis and has testified before Congress 30 times on the economic, fiscal, and demographic impact of immigration. Your ad homnim isn't helping your case. Nothing they've stated is racist.
>Camarota previously claimed in a similarly ‘published’ paper that 2/3 of the jobs created under Obama went to illegal immigrants.
Link to this?