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What Porn Did to American Culture?

theatlantic.com

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Re: What Porn Did to American Culture?

#61

Post by palata »

sepositus wrote: post #54
palata wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuinely interested: when people say "video games make people violent, just look at this violent person who plays violent video games". Many times I don't particularly see a causation, and I know a ton of people who play video games and aren't violent. Are we sure that porn "molds" people like that? Or is it a claim similar to the ones against video games?

I'm sure there have been studies done, but I don't know them off the top of my head. I'm speaking from personal experience here (since apparently I need to spell this out in my comments): I would say that violent video games _may_ play a role in someone who then proceeds to go down the path of "violence porn." But usually, there are other factors drawing them to that place (i.e., bullying). Likewise, I've often seen…

I didn't mean to attack your original statement: you work with people who have issues caused by porn, and I completely realise it does exist. Just like there are people addicted to video games.

I am kind of interested in the causality. The featured article says that "porn has molded the world we live in", which is much wider than saying "some people get addicted to porn and it is bad", right?

Re: What Porn Did to American Culture?

#62

Post by vjulian »

Yet another crappy article about sex from an otherwise respectable publication. Why does this keep happening? The article assumes a negative definition of “porn” without ever seriously examining it. As usual, sexual depiction is assumed as inherently harmful, isolating, or degrading without any good argument as to why. Then, it makes a leap implying that the rise of pornography explains social problems like loneliness or political alienation. Also, American discomfort with public sexual expression is not intrinsic or universal reality.

What distinguishes porn from other depictions of sex? Could it be that porn and social atomization are symptoms of deeper technological or cultural trends, rather than assuming one causes the other?

Re: What Porn Did to American Culture?

#63

Post by thraway79879s8d »

loeg wrote: post #55
thraway79879s8d wrote: post #38

It would probably be way healthier to ban porn and legalize prostitution, than ban prostitution and legalize porn. Much harder to get into the dehumanization mindset trap in person. The interview repeats the common aphorism "sex sells", but it should follow it up "sex sells other things". Sublimated desires into other categories this way doesn't seem good either.

> Much harder to get into the dehumanization mindset trap in person. What are you talking about? Sex workers are routinely beaten / degraded / killed at higher rates than other people.

That's bad reasoning

- Sex work is much more dangerous because it is illegal

- Legal sex work could lead to increased trafficking when there is so much unmet demand for legal immigration, but abundant legal immigration would solve that

- The people currently seeking out illegal sex work, or seeking it out in countries were there is more violence against women in general, are probably much more prone to violence. Increasing the size of the industry would result in a "regression to the mean" among johns

The porn problem is a bunch of people subtlety rewire their libidos in anti-social ways over time. That is involving orders of magnitudes more people than those that currently beat sex workers, and men and women alike (as the interview makes clear). A good legal prostitution system would have be:

1. Still quite expensive

2. No "pimps" or anything of that nature

3. Sex workers higher their own private security, run their own brothels, little reliance on police (who are likely to continue to be misogynist fucks regardless of how the law changes)

Basically poorer men, instead of going to cheaper brothels where the workers are treated worse, would have to "save up" for fewer trips to still-expensive establishments where 2 and 3 are still abundantly true. High American equality does also make this a challenge, for sure.

Re: What Porn Did to American Culture?

#64

Post by SequoiaHope »

mystraline wrote: post #22

The article claims porn, and sure, that's a part. The bigger issue here is outmoded predominant protestant christian views of 'morality'. And that percolates all through the rest of USA culture, including into advertisements and commercialism. Their view of sex is as a sin, so its shamed, hidden, and secretly desired. All these things have popped up with all these pretty terrible results. Sexuality is 'tittalting' so…

Sex parties are fun!

I’m in the “embrace sex, skip the shame” boat. In the Bay Area there’s a really solid polyamory community. I’ve been reading the books and working on my own communication issues and anxieties for a good 15 years now and at this point things flow so smoothly. I have so many people in my life I’m on a kissing basis with. It’s so lovely! I’m surrounded by genuine connection and affection. Me and my community have good communication. No one ever gets jealous as we’re all consensually dating a bunch of people. (I’m mostly “solo poly” these days.) I have some regular partners I share more structured, intentional loving and intimate connection with. I have cute friends I go on bike rides with and then kiss and cuddle while taking a break at the waterfront. I get invited to all kinds of functions. Sex is a source of genuine joy for me. I get tested once every two or three months and I have a clear communication protocol and safer sex practice I use with new people.

Amongst all this, porn is just a way to get my motor running. An arousing way to engage in self play and to build energy for what weekend adventures await. Or, if I’m so inclined, a way to ease my own stress and experience some physical release of energy and ease stress.

I’ve heard this notion before - that people who suffer from “porn addiction” often have an unhealthy relationship with sex, often coming from Christian puritanical views and shame of the self and the body. Drop the shame! Learn to love yourself. Learn to communicate your needs and desires. Be with your community. Have fun! I am. :)

Re: What Porn Did to American Culture?

#65

Post by pseudalopex »

loeg wrote: post #51
standardUser wrote: post #39

This reads like a discussion form the 90's when the porn industry, and most media, were tightly controlled by small number of dominant players that set the norms (whether we liked it or not). I know a lot of people who have created porn in the 2010's and onward and none of them have any connection whatsoever to that porn industry of yesteryear. This feels like a strained attempt to stain the independent porn of today…

Not advocating for the article/interview in any way, but: if anything, I think the porn industry is more consolidated today than it was in the 90s? MindGeek owns all of the brands.

MindGeek are Aylo now. They own a large share of studio porn. But OnlyFans increased independent production.

Re: What Porn Did to American Culture?

#66

Post by sepositus »

palata wrote: post #61
sepositus wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure there have been studies done, but I don't know them off the top of my head. I'm speaking from personal experience here (since apparently I need to spell this out in my comments): I would say that violent video games _may_ play a role in someone who then proceeds to go down the path of "violence porn." But usually, there are other factors drawing them to that place (i.e., bullying). Likewise, I've often seen…

I didn't mean to attack your original statement: you work with people who have issues caused by porn, and I completely realise it does exist. Just like there are people addicted to video games. I am kind of interested in the causality. The featured article says that "porn has molded the world we live in", which is much wider than saying "some people get addicted to porn and it is bad", right?

Yeah, I agree that the statement, "porn has molded the world we live in," is problematic. Based on my experience, it certainly does affect a subset of the world negatively, but how much do those people go on to shape the world? It's plausible some do, but without more evidence, it's hard to discern by _how much_.

Re: What Porn Did to American Culture?

#67

Post by DangitBobby »

vjulian wrote: post #62

Yet another crappy article about sex from an otherwise respectable publication. Why does this keep happening? The article assumes a negative definition of “porn” without ever seriously examining it. As usual, sexual depiction is assumed as inherently harmful, isolating, or degrading without any good argument as to why. Then, it makes a leap implying that the rise of pornography explains social problems like lonelines…

> Why does this keep happening?

There is a Sophie Gilbert who writes for The Atlantic, so maybe that's how this article came to be. I haven't been able to determine if it's the same person or a coincidence.

Re: What Porn Did to American Culture?

#68

Post by thraway79879s8d »

mystraline wrote: post #22

The article claims porn, and sure, that's a part. The bigger issue here is outmoded predominant protestant christian views of 'morality'. And that percolates all through the rest of USA culture, including into advertisements and commercialism. Their view of sex is as a sin, so its shamed, hidden, and secretly desired. All these things have popped up with all these pretty terrible results. Sexuality is 'tittalting' so…

You're right, but I don't think "just go to a sex party" scales up. There is simply way more male interest in such things. (Though yes, a lot of men would chicken-out last minute too.)

A gestalt of 3rd wave feminisism is "maybe if women are liberated, they will be hornier like men", and there was a huge amount of cultural messaging in this direction. It does not work, and as the interview entails, there is a lot of resentment from the women feeling like they were being propagandized to enjoy a hookup culture that didn't not fulfill their needs.

Either

1. men need to get less sociosexual 2. women need to get more sociosexual 3. wayyy more men need to come out as bi 4. or money needs to change hands.

We've already more or less tried and failed at 2 per the above, no one has a clear proposal for 1, 3 would be great but unclear how high the ceiling is, and then there's 4.

I would love to avoid 4 if anyone could actually come up with a serious proposal on how to massively increase sex party attendance / polyamory / etc. without money changing hands, but I am not seeing it.

Re: What Porn Did to American Culture?

#69

Post by pseudalopex »

mystraline wrote: post #22

The article claims porn, and sure, that's a part. The bigger issue here is outmoded predominant protestant christian views of 'morality'. And that percolates all through the rest of USA culture, including into advertisements and commercialism. Their view of sex is as a sin, so its shamed, hidden, and secretly desired. All these things have popped up with all these pretty terrible results. Sexuality is 'tittalting' so…

> And really, everybody should at least try a sex party (Bacchanal) once. Have to do some std checks ahead of time, but its just so liberating and freeing for everyone. It gets money, possessiveness, prudishness, and all those distorting things out of the way. And puts sex into perspective. And well, its fun.

https://xkcd.com/592/

Sex parties are liberating for some people. Not for others. People who go to sex parties are not healthier or unhealthier in my experience.

Re: What Porn Did to American Culture?

#70

Post by palata »

sepositus wrote: post #66
palata wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't mean to attack your original statement: you work with people who have issues caused by porn, and I completely realise it does exist. Just like there are people addicted to video games. I am kind of interested in the causality. The featured article says that "porn has molded the world we live in", which is much wider than saying "some people get addicted to porn and it is bad", right?

Yeah, I agree that the statement, "porn has molded the world we live in," is problematic. Based on my experience, it certainly does affect a subset of the world negatively, but how much do those people go on to shape the world? It's plausible some do, but without more evidence, it's hard to discern by _how much_.

Right. Yeah I completely agree with that :-).
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