Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

aclu.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

591–600 of 908 posts

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#591

Post by yibg »

stefap2 wrote: post #512

Six months ago I would have endorsed wide-scale deportations, but after seeing the consequences—families swept into jails, plain-clothes officers ambushing people on their way to work or school, and communities living in constant fear—it’s clear that indiscriminate removals are neither practical nor just. This approach diverts resources from pursuing violent offenders, erodes faith in the rule of law, and forces the…

This makes it sound like an unintended consequence, rather than the goal. “Papers please” is the desired end state.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#592

Post by JumpCrisscross »

slg wrote: post #481
perihelions wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C-f "citizenship"—55 results C-f "metastatic cancer"—1 There's a poor child that's being withheld access to their medication and to their oncologists, and the adults in the room—adults in uniforms, adults with guns, adults in suits and adults in black robes—all of these adults are doing their adult things with their adult words, and the sum total of all that is the child still is without their cancer medicine. What g…

>There's a poor child that's being withheld access to their medication and to their oncologists, and the adults in the room—adults in uniforms, adults with guns, adults in suits and adults in black robes—all of these adults are doing their adult things with their adult words, and the sum total of all that is the child still is without their cancer medicine. People like to blame these sort of situations on leadership…

> every individual involved in this is making a personal choice to let this happen.

To be fair, you and I are involved. I'm on vacation in Mexico. You're presumably also doing something comfortable. We've had, in the span of days, a judge arrested in her court room and multiple U.S. citizens--children, no less---illegally detained and deported.

It's blowing my mind to say this. But the right is clearly using violence as a political tactic. That means there is not only legitimacy, but necessity, in the opposition to begin deploying violence as a political tactic as well. (By this I mean disrupting infrastructure, interfering with law enforcement, disrupting lawmaking, et cetera. Break their cars. Hack their systems. Block their streets and maybe cause damage to their buildings. Under no circumstances do I mean causing physical harm to anyone.)

ICE "abruptly terminated" a phone call with the detained mother "when her spouse tried to provide legal counsel’s phone number". The brown shirts [1] are here.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#593

Post by remarkEon »

kccqzy wrote: post #584
remarkEon wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely you understand the difference between a cop declining to issue a speeding ticket and a federal "discretionary" policy that makes it de facto legal to violate standing immigration law at scale.

There is no difference. People often complain during the pandemic that the San Francisco police department has seemingly instituted a "discretionary" policy that makes it de facto legal to violate traffic law at scale, you know, including speeding, not stopping at stop signs, not yielding to pedestrians. https://www.reddit.com/r/sanfrancisco/comments/11nbnxw/san_f...

Maybe you are misunderstanding. A single cop deciding "okay today I'm letting you off with a warning" is quite different from the President directing the entire Federal bureaucracy to not enforce existing immigration law. If for some reason a large jurisdiction, say maybe the state of California, decided that it was policy to let everyone off with a warning for speeding infractions, then, if I squint hard enough and ignore a wide range of second and third order effects, then yeah maybe they are similar.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#595

Post by Der_Einzige »

darksaints wrote: post #467
gradus_ad wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I sincerely hope people like you get sent to a Salvadoran torture gulag the next time you drive over the speed limit. Because we absolutely understand no circumstances can afford a breakdown in the rule of law.

I’m so tired of how when fascists operate in the open, the attempt to throw back their rhetoric to them is always perceived as “weak”, “beta”, and incompetent from the public at large. Feels like some SCP object of right wing reaction exists in this country.

There’s never any kind of “extreme” movement designed to stamp this shit out in the USA. It ends up being kids wearing red who have never done pushups or other hard exercise before, mixed with a healthy dose of spooks making absolutely sure that these organizations never gain any real power.

A whole lot of authoritarian bootlickers in this thread who are ready to sell out their countrymen to CECOT themselves deserve to spend some time in a torture prison like that - because there is nothing else in this world that will convince them of the utter inhumanity of such a place.

But you know, “so much for the tolerant left” and all that. Fuck this stupid, tyrannical, authoritarian, reality.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#596

Post by JumpCrisscross »

djoldman wrote: post #56

From what research I've seen, the phrasing here should be that non-citizens were deported and chose to bring their US citizen children with them. The children themselves were not deported. This in no way excuses any of the other issues like not allowing contact with legal advocates / attorneys.

> phrasing here should be that non-citizens were deported and chose to bring their US citizen children with them. The children themselves were not deported

This is what ICE alleges. They're a uniquely uncredible witness among government agencies [1][2].

A judge found the father's allegations worthy of meriting "strong suspicion that the Government just deported a U.S. citizen with no meaningful process," an act which is itself illegal [3]. That is far more credible.

[1] https://www.aclu.org/court-cases?issue=ice-and-border-patrol...

[2] https://apnews.com/article/ice-immigration-arrest-trial-cont...

[3] https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.lawd.21...

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#597

Post by Aloisius »

mc32 wrote: post #427
tomrod wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of which is the US,and would require a constitutional amendment to change.

Rather a different interpretation of the XIV. It was intended for slaves and the children of slaves (there were few non-British foreigners in the US) at the time. However, over time, it was interpreted to mean anyone not only the descendants of slaves/ex-slaves). That could very well be re-interpreted.

> there were few non-British foreigners in the US

People born in the Germany made up about 3.5% of the US population (1.11 million) in 1860. While they were one of the largest groups, many states/territories had large percentages of other non-British people like California, where 9% of the population was born in China. Then you have territories like New Mexico where most of the population had been born in Mexico.

Regardless, the debates for the 14th Amendment make it absolutely clear they understood they understood a child born to, say, Chinese parents in the US would get citizenship.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#598

Post by JackYoustra »

remarkEon wrote: post #589
JackYoustra wrote: post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your "more supply equals lower wages" argument is demolished by top economic research. A recent NBER study calculated that "immigration, thanks to native-immigrant complementarity and college skill content of immigrants, had a positive and significant effect between +1.7 to +2.6% on wages of less educated native workers" between 2000-2019. The economy isn't zero-sum. As Milton Friedman noted, "most economic fallacies…

Nowhere in the economic research does it explain what you are so confidently stating, that wages are, somehow, the only thing in all of economics where positive supply shocks do not matter. The arguments that tend to be made are that, on a long enough time horizon, mean wages increase because overall economic output goes up, and mean economic output goes up because there is a higher supply of available labor.

You're fundamentally misunderstanding both the economic research and my argument. No one is claiming wages are "the only thing in economics where positive supply shocks don't matter."

The research shows that labor markets aren't simple supply-demand curves because of complementary productivity effects and gains from specialization, selection effects, and, of course, demand generated by the immigrants. If you have general labor size increase, in general equilibrium with a responsive central bank interest rates will lower to keep employment tight.

This isn't about "long enough time horizons" - studies find positive or neutral effects in the short and medium term too. The fundamental issue is that your model assumes a fixed economic pie that immigrants simply divide into smaller slices, when in reality immigrants help grow the pie overall.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#599

Post by [deleted] »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #544
Waterluvian wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel more disgusted by the Americans who know this is wrong but do nothing. I have no patience for evil people, but the truly damned are all the Americans who know and sense better but do not or cannot act properly. If deporting U.S. CITIZEN CHILDREN does not send you to the streets with fire and fury, you are well and truly lost. So much damn talk over the decades I've been alive about patriotism and liberty from…

Answering for myself, I don't see a movement that is strictly for due process, law, and order. Each side is so encumbered with baggage that I don't want to support them. One is breaking law and processes in egregious ways. The other thinks that law should not apply to illegal immigrants and even legal deportations are a due process violation.

[deleted]

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#600

Post by JumpCrisscross »

low_tech_love wrote: post #587
stefap2 wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good question. I still think it's unfair for these people to stay here, when legal refugees spent waiting years or decades for permission to enter often in bad conditions in refugee camps. The issue here is officials keep rounding up students on legal visas and parents who’ve lived here for years—exactly the people the article labels “families who had lived in the United States for years and had deep ties to their co…

So basically you came to the same conclusion as everyone else who is against this (and who I assume you would consider to be your political opponents): that even though it sounds good and reasonable on paper (as a populist concept), in practice it is invariably used for arbitrary exercise of power. Here is the thing: hard and complex problems require hard and complex solutions, but you chose to put in power the peopl…

> hard and complex problems require hard and complex solutions

There's actually a simple solution to illegal immigration: go after the employers. We don't because we want to have our cake and eat it too. (Same reason these raids aren't happening on farms in red states.)

Post reply on HN