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ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

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Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#551

Post by slg »

eschaton wrote: post #542
mtVessel wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: how did you envision "wide-scale deportations" playing out, prior to these events?

Exactly—plenty of people said exactly what would happen. Why did you not believe them? Will you believe them in the future?

>Will you believe them in the future?

An underdiscussed frustrating aspect of this whole era is that there is never any true retrospection. There is no adjustment in the credibility of the people who predicted exactly how things would play out or the people whose predictions ended up being incredibly wrong. If there is a lack of consequence for being wrong, it ends up meaning there won't be any consequences for maliciously lying in the moment knowing it's only a matter of time until they are proven wrong because when that day comes, they have already moved onto some other lie and the cycle continues.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#552

Post by PoignardAzur »

hayst4ck wrote: post #547
mtVessel wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: how did you envision "wide-scale deportations" playing out, prior to these events?

I think the most common of human mistakes is to think that because something is easy to say, it is easy to do. Once you actually dig in to how to accomplish something you find the devil in the details and complexity in places you didn't realized it exists. I would not believe someone is an experienced programmer unless they understand this idea in their bones. I think so many people here, with the benefit of hindsigh…

I strongly disagree with your framing. Yes, policies can have unintended consequences and immigration policy in particular is a minefield of obvious solutions having terrible results... But that's not what we're talking about.

When OP says "I was for wide-scale deportations until I saw people I like being deported", it's not a case of unintended consequences, it's a case of "When I voted for the leopard party I didn't think the leopards would eat the faces of people I like!"

Unintended consequences means things like "criminality increased because immigrant communities lost trust in the police".

But come on. "Families swept into jails, plain-clothes officers ambushing people on their way to work or school" is how deportations work. Being surprised by that is like being surprised that the death penalty means people get executed.

This isn't a failure of epistemology, it's a failure of empathy. OP just didn't think that the people getting deported would turn out to be people with moral value.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#553

Post by pyuser583 »

timewizard wrote: post #539
intermerda wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The distrust of the press has been cultivated intentionally. A POTUS saying "What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening" would have been seen too farcical for a comedy. And yet here we are.

> The distrust of the press has been cultivated intentionally. Yea, by the press itself, or, do you honestly believe the billionaire owner class of this form of media has done an excellent job reporting truthfully over the past 30 years? Pull yourself back from your politics and genuinely consider this.

When reading an article, how do I figure out what the “good reporter” is trying to say, and distinguish it from what the “bad owner” is trying to say?

The best way I know is to carefully parse the text in its most literal form. That is what the “good reporter” is saying. The “general idea” of what is being said is probably what the editor wants.

Owners and editors want “wow” articles. Journalists know most of what they report is just “somebody said something.”

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#554

Post by mariodiana »

cryptoegorophy wrote: post #441
nharada wrote: post #314

Feels like this conversation is full of people getting hung up on arguing the technicalities and exact phrasing of this situation. Is that really important to the broader conversation?

What’s the conversation? Separating kids from parents or deporting them with parents because we don’t want them to be separate? There is no question about breaking the law by parents. Question is do you let children be with their mothers(who apparently asked to do so) or no. As someone who came legally to Canada and went through thorough screening of 4 years before coming I just don’t get how people are ok with “chea…

Exactly. Children belong with their parents. And if their parents don't belong here, then Q.E.D.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#555

Post by lazyeye »

stefap2 wrote: post #512

Six months ago I would have endorsed wide-scale deportations, but after seeing the consequences—families swept into jails, plain-clothes officers ambushing people on their way to work or school, and communities living in constant fear—it’s clear that indiscriminate removals are neither practical nor just. This approach diverts resources from pursuing violent offenders, erodes faith in the rule of law, and forces the…

[flagged]

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#557

Post by nineplay »

weaksauce wrote: post #546
nineplay wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> MLK said it best: "the moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice, who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice" Are you a moderate who has a better plan? I ask that sincerely, if I've given up its not because I prefer peace but because I know a losing battle when I see one. We don't have a charismatic leader like MLK. The democratic pa…

> Are you a moderate who has a better plan? stop supporting moderate politicians that appeal to no damn person. find someone with charisma like obama. there is no magical moderate voter that the dems keep hoping to appeal to. they already have been the center right party for decades now.

> stop supporting moderate politicians that appeal to no damn person

I think you are right but I think half of democratic voters think the party has gone too left ( abortion, gender politics ) while half thinks it has gone too far right. The democratic party is trying to have it both ways and utterly failing, but in their defense I don't think fully embracing either side will be enough for them to win. The problem is largely the voters who absolutely refuse to compromise on their personal hill to die on. Republican voters will unite on anyone as long as they piss of the left.

> find someone with charisma like Obama

That person does not exist, or if they do they are too smart to support the shambling mess that is the democratic party.

I think the party is gambling that Trump makes such a hopeless mess of things that voters will have no choice but vote blue. I'm not sure they will win that gamble.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#558

Post by Chris2048 »

llm_nerd wrote: post #39
globalnode wrote: post #6

theyve started arresting judges too, rip.

Bondi -- an outrageously partisan hack who is destroying the DOJ -- reached peak irony when she stated that "no one is above the law" in talking about that case. Donald Trump and his administration are on an absolute crime spree[1]. Insider trading, launching shit-coins and engaging in self-dealing, completely disregarding both the constitution and the courts, up to and including the Supreme Court. The US is currentl…

> when she stated that "no one is above the law" in talking about that case

My reading is that the judge lied to the FBI in order to help the subject escape, AFAIK this is a felony (obstruction?) and anyone else would be charged - so why isn't it equally applicable to a judge? I think people are assuming the judge has some form of power that she doesn't.

Not going to discuss Bondi or Trump, on a GBA basis.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#559

Post by undersuit »

samlinnfer wrote: post #310
undersuit wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the threat of jail? Is the US punitive system not effective? In many ways I'd rather be an immigrant than a citizen if the punishment for crimes is deportation rather than detention... as long as I'm not being sent to country that has also suspended their constitutional right to due process.

First, I don't believe this crime rises to the level of jail. Second, it doesn't make sense here because if the parents are jailed who will take care of the children? I'm also not sold on putting more people into the meat grinder of US judicial system. When they deported at least they will be free. Ironically, compared to the US judicial system, this is the more human approach.

You said "break the rules". If you meant border crossing say it next time. Also they aren't free if they are deported to, like I already said, a country that has also suspended due process.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#560

Post by [deleted] »

lazyeye wrote: post #555
stefap2 wrote: post #512

Six months ago I would have endorsed wide-scale deportations, but after seeing the consequences—families swept into jails, plain-clothes officers ambushing people on their way to work or school, and communities living in constant fear—it’s clear that indiscriminate removals are neither practical nor just. This approach diverts resources from pursuing violent offenders, erodes faith in the rule of law, and forces the…

[flagged]

[deleted]
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