ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation • Hacker News Board

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#301

Post by padjo » Sat, Apr 26, 2025, 4:45 PM UTC

krosaen wrote: post #150

padjo wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside from whether it is correct in this particular case or not, it’s just bizarre to me that you would post what AI told you. It’s like you’re a booster for dead internet theory. So in addition to half the internet consisting of AIs arguing with each other, we now have to deal with people telling us what AI said.

> Aside from whether it is correct If it's mind boggling to you I would ask chatgpt, it's mind boggling to me that you don't care whether it is correct... But if you generally think chatGPT produces garbage, I guess that makes sense. I disagree, to me it's a good initial query, replacing google. As with google before, it is not authoritative (e.g AI may hallucinate, or google may land you on some SEO bs page), but I…

Nor do I dismiss it, in fact I was just using it to help me research something. I just don’t need people on the internet telling me what it said.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#302

Post by gedy » Sat, Apr 26, 2025, 4:45 PM UTC

tomrod wrote: post #143

andsoitis wrote: post #84

While the 3 minors are US citizens, their parents are not and the parents can be deported because they are in the country illegally. That means you have the following options: a) deport nobody, i.e. you don't apply the law b) deport just the parents. What do you do with the minor children? Separating them from their parents (different countries) would be cruel. c) deport the entire family, including the US minors. Si…

d) Follow due process and allow the immigration judge to determine e) Amnesty if living here for awhile and not causing a ruckus.[0] US is huge, it needs more people not less. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Control...

> US is huge, it needs more people not less

Would be nice if we had more housing for that.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#303

Post by ajross » Sat, Apr 26, 2025, 4:45 PM UTC

eastbound wrote: post #262

ajross wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From what research I've seen, the phrasing here should be that non-citizens were deported and chose to bring their US citizen children with them. The children themselves were not deported. That seems deliberately Orwellian. What's the "not deported" scenario you're imagining? Literally abandoning your child in a jail somewhere?! It's not like these folks are in hotels, or have access to phones or family. I mean, yi…

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> And she was given the choice to get separated or keep the child.

Representing that as a "choice" is precisely the Orwellian part. I'm guessing you don't have kids.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#304

Post by dharmab » Sat, Apr 26, 2025, 4:46 PM UTC

chasd00 wrote: post #296

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The mother was also technically able to speak with the father, though monitored, for less than a minute, and they were interrupted when the father attempted to give a number for the attorney to the mother. Based on your wording alone, would it be safe to say the mother was unable to avail herself of counsel before making a decision?

If the mother is not a us citizen is she entitled to counsel? Or entitled to anything else? Curious to know to what parts of US law apply to non citizens and what parts do not.

Yes, the sixth amendment is very clear on this.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#305

Post by gpm » Sat, Apr 26, 2025, 4:46 PM UTC

chasd00 wrote: post #297

gpm wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the extent that they let the mother make a decision, which is itself unclear, I would say all evidence points to that. We only really have the father's and judge's account of events here.

> We only really have the father's and judge's account of events here Given that, then this whole thread is pointless. I just assumed people were more informed based on what they’re claiming.

The fact that there's a lawsuit here with briefs describing what happened in detail, and rulings from a judge with detailed timelines, means we have a great deal more accurate information than most news stories provide. If you're not willing to make a judgement off of this information, when it is so unambiguous, you're never going to be able to make a judgement in time to react to anything.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#306

Post by tomrod » Sat, Apr 26, 2025, 4:47 PM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #281

tomrod wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> here illegally I have to wonder what horrors and shames ones pathway of life must have taken to think a person existing in a space is summarizable as illegal. A person cannot be illegal. They cannot exist in a space illegally. They could enter a space illegally. They could be unauthorized to be in a space. But by simple fact that they exist in the world, if the law makes them illegal to exist, then that law is unju…

I think this is the rhetoric that drove the country to this point. They are here illegally. They can exist elsewhere legally. Respect for law is critical, and valorizing the breaking it undermines the very concept of society. If you want more immigration, work to increase legal quotas and update the law.

I cannot fathom being so far removed from facts on the ground as this comment suggests its commentator is.

1. "respect for the law" requires both due process, for both citizens and people in the geographical jurisdiction of the US, and respect for the courts. Anyone who works around due process and court orders does not respect the law. This is a general statement regarding the treatment by the current regime, using ICE, towards immigrants and anyone they think is associated to it. Literally -- this article is about deporting of US citizens held incommunicado and without legal representation, and people are already protesting judges being arrested and legal residents being exiled without due process.

2. "this is the rhetoric that drove the country to this point" would more appropriately be attributed the othering of immigrants and groups MAGA doesn't agree with - how many Haitians ate dogs and cats in Ohio? Maybe more than 0, but certainly not the unmoored groundswell of false-flag horror that crested at the rightful mocking of Trump's debate performance.[0] Ref: the moral teachings on motes, beams, eyes, Golden Rule, etc. across time and religions of all stripes. I reject the notion that me expressing empathy for immigrants and the xenophobists is rhetoric driving the country apart. It's calling a spade a spade.

3. "If you want more immigration, work to increase legal quotas and update the law." This is sort of one of those feel-good statements that have no meat or content in them. We had a perfectly cromulent immigration reform ready to go until Trump threw a tantrum and got Republican legislators to vote against their own interests because it would hurt his presidential chances. We could go back to that, it had some good political will, instead of the authoritarian nonsense chaotically deployed. Of course, you wouldn't want me to be the authoritarian -- we'd come out of things with an open border and trade agreement across the Americas because that's more efficient and morally justifiable than military intervention at a mis-named "invasion" at the border (almost as poorly named as DOGE). So rather than enabling groups to work towards coherent immigration strategies, we have a tyranny of the majority assumed to be the will of the land.[1]

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNbhpkJ69ts

[1] "It is abundantly clear that many activist judges around the country have been acting politically in order to sabotage President Trump's agenda, and disenfranchise the 77 million Americans that voted for him." - Rep. Derrick Van Orden (R-Wisc.) (This is 100% political grandstanding, since polls show that most people now disagree with Trump's agenda, [1a])

[1a] https://archive.ph/T7yVp, especially the immigration section is now underwater

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#307

Post by Zak » Sat, Apr 26, 2025, 4:48 PM UTC

chasd00 wrote: post #296

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The mother was also technically able to speak with the father, though monitored, for less than a minute, and they were interrupted when the father attempted to give a number for the attorney to the mother. Based on your wording alone, would it be safe to say the mother was unable to avail herself of counsel before making a decision?

If the mother is not a us citizen is she entitled to counsel? Or entitled to anything else? Curious to know to what parts of US law apply to non citizens and what parts do not.

In noncriminal matters such as deportations, there's no right to counsel at public expense. The broader rights to due process of law and habeas corpus have generally been held by the courts to apply to immigration detention and deportation, and people are certainly free to hire counsel at their own expense in such proceedings.

It gets tricky when a deportation is completed before a court can hear the case. Attempting to prevent a detainee from communicating their location and situation to someone who could bring a legal action on their behalf doesn't appear to be explicitly illegal, but it's certainly an attempt to subvert due process and probably ought to be illegal.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#308

Post by tomrod » Sat, Apr 26, 2025, 4:48 PM UTC

chasd00 wrote: post #272

tomrod wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> here illegally I have to wonder what horrors and shames ones pathway of life must have taken to think a person existing in a space is summarizable as illegal. A person cannot be illegal. They cannot exist in a space illegally. They could enter a space illegally. They could be unauthorized to be in a space. But by simple fact that they exist in the world, if the law makes them illegal to exist, then that law is unju…

Can I exist in your bedroom while you sleep tonight? Your argument is ridiculous.

My bedroom constitutes the entirety of the US border? Your argument is reductive.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#309

Post by chasd00 » Sat, Apr 26, 2025, 4:49 PM UTC

eastbound wrote: post #262

ajross wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From what research I've seen, the phrasing here should be that non-citizens were deported and chose to bring their US citizen children with them. The children themselves were not deported. That seems deliberately Orwellian. What's the "not deported" scenario you're imagining? Literally abandoning your child in a jail somewhere?! It's not like these folks are in hotels, or have access to phones or family. I mean, yi…

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> The only Orwellian thing is she was lied to by Democrats that she could lead a safe life in the US. That’s on you.

This cannot be overstated. I wish I had a thousand up votes to give you. Democrats made a promise they knew would never hold up just for the votes. Now the chickens are coming home to roost and these people who were lied to by Democrats are the ones paying the price.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#310

Post by samlinnfer » Sat, Apr 26, 2025, 4:49 PM UTC

undersuit wrote: post #191

samlinnfer wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of processing immigration applications fairly for everyone, we just should let people who break the rules get away with it? Having deportation as an actual threat, reduces the amount of people who attempt to break the rules since they know there are consequences.

What about the threat of jail? Is the US punitive system not effective? In many ways I'd rather be an immigrant than a citizen if the punishment for crimes is deportation rather than detention... as long as I'm not being sent to country that has also suspended their constitutional right to due process.

First, I don't believe this crime rises to the level of jail. Second, it doesn't make sense here because if the parents are jailed who will take care of the children? I'm also not sold on putting more people into the meat grinder of US judicial system. When they deported at least they will be free. Ironically, compared to the US judicial system, this is the more human approach.