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ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

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Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#131

Post by southernplaces7 »

surgical_fire wrote: post #4
ohgr wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As my wise but now throughly dead German grandmother said: ”Do you think the nazis appeared out of thin air? No they were everywhere just waiting for someone to enable them with a label and an ideology.” I suspect something analogous is happening here and it’s similarly not pretty. Hopefully it’ll get nipped in the bud quickly. My fellow citizens scare me more than the government does.

The interesting thing about this parallel, is that the "final solution" in Germany was final because it was not the original solution. Originally they wanted to, well, deport the undesirables to some far off country, initially to Madagascar if memory serves. Managing mass incarceration and deportation is a difficult task however, and these people (both then and now) are not exactly competent at anything beyond bravad…

>Managing mass incarceration and deportation is a difficult task however, and these people (both then and now) are not exactly competent at anything beyond bravado.

The holocaust also required mass incarceration and deportation, except that the huge undertaking of deportation was towards death camps in occupied territories instead of some foreign land. On the first point above, I caution against thinking that it would be much easier; it wasn't really, they just decided that they wanted to kill the people they considered undesirable after all.

On the second point, it's worth noting that the efforts at expulsion partly failed because many other countries, despite knowing of the brutal repression being suffered by the jews (and others but the jews in particular) decided to stonewall most avenues of exit from Nazi domains. Deportation would have still been terrible, but at least it would have put millions of eventual victims outside the reach of gas chambers and death squads. Such as it was, a sort of tacit complicity of indifference didn't allow that to happen, by others who weren't even necessarily supporters of the Nazis.

In either case, be careful about calling evil people practicing evil ends incompetent. In so many ways they were very competent at far more than simple bravado, and underestimating the capabilities of barbaric monsters is always dangerous for future lessons.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#132

Post by retzkek »

sanderjd wrote: post #59
somenameforme wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every day across the world thousands of people are removed from countries around the world for violating immigration laws. Except in cases of where it coincided with criminality, it's always going to be very ugly, because it means somebody had built up a life for themselves somewhere and that is now ended due to them having been born in a different place and then overstayed their permission, or never received such, t…

> the children's citizenship was solely one of birthright Under the US Constitution, this is not a distinction. What you're looking for is just "the children's citizenship" without this qualifier that signifies nothing under the law. The better alternative is to aggressively enforce employment laws against employers . Immigrants come here and stay here to work.

And then, what? Are citizens beating down the doors to do these jobs but getting out-competed by migrants? Are these the same citizens who are lining up to do sweatshop labor when manufacturing “returns” to the US?

If undocumented workers are finding productive work in an economy with low unemployment then the problem is that the government is not facilitating them gaining legal status.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#133

Post by sashank_1509 »

apical_dendrite wrote: post #75
pclmulqdq wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of those statuses are called "visas" and they have been around for a while. Obama's innovation was giving a weird form of status ("we know you broke the law and we aren't enforcing it") to people who broke the law when crossing the border. Most people with a non-illegal and non-citizen status are supposed to apply for that status before crossing the border.

Sure, the point is that the poster I was responding to said that the only way to avoid putting US citizen minor children in a position where they have to either leave the country, or stay in the country without their parents, is to effectively grant citizenship to the parents. My point is that that's a false choice, it would be possible to grant the parents a temporary, conditional status that's based on having minor…

How is that any different from granting parents citizenship. In some sense you presume birthright citizenship doesn’t make sense. Let us say an immigrant illegally comes into the country and becomes a robber. He in fact, just mugs people on the street. Clearly he’s a net negative, someone you want to deport. Now he has a child. Now by virtue of him having a child, we can no longer deport him, because then we make the child who’s a citizen less parent less. Also assume in this case the mother is some criminal too, to drive the point home.

The simpler, logically consistent solution would be that the child’s citizenship is only granted if the parents are citizens. (Or at least if parents are not illegal immigrants). Then when you deport the parents, you can legally deport the child too. It still is not a pleasant situation, there is no ideal solution here, except he should have never been let in at all, but once he is, these seem the only choices

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#134

Post by kleton »

sfasdfasd wrote: post #118
miltonlost wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is less accurate. It erases the US citizenship of the children by being born here with the 14th Amendment, and subtly implies that they AREN'T citizens and are just "U.S.-Born" as if the 14th Amendment didn't apply (like Trump wants).

"U.S Born" == "U.S Citizenship" would be the default assumption of any rational, thinking person. You can add more words to say the same thing but it only ends up being annoying.

Less than half the population of the world live in birthright citizenship countries. Such countries as all of Eurasia except Pakistan, and all but a handful of African countries. Do those countries not have rational thinking people?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#135

Post by tomrod »

djoldman wrote: post #56

From what research I've seen, the phrasing here should be that non-citizens were deported and chose to bring their US citizen children with them. The children themselves were not deported. This in no way excuses any of the other issues like not allowing contact with legal advocates / attorneys.

This is not accurate, though I have found that people who steep in rightwing propaganda tend to repeat these type of talking points.

The Rawlsian veil ethic applies here.

EDIT: RE - the knee-jerk downvotes. I appreciate that people pointing out authoritarianism can be painful if you are embracing it. Cognitive dissonance is never a fun thing to work through, and having done it a few times I sympathize with the struggles you face or may be facing.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#136

Post by jaybrendansmith »

k310 wrote: post #11

Why the deliberate atrocities? I read an article that starts with this proposition [1] > The real question, however, is not how America lost its way. We know the mechanics of it. It lost its way in large measure because Donald Trump, a Pied Piper of malice, led it astray, though one can’t lay all of that or even most of it on Trump. The American people, nearly half of those who voted, in their infinite wisdom empower…

I weep for my once great, free, and democratic country.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#137

Post by abduhl »

sfasdfasd wrote: post #118
miltonlost wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is less accurate. It erases the US citizenship of the children by being born here with the 14th Amendment, and subtly implies that they AREN'T citizens and are just "U.S.-Born" as if the 14th Amendment didn't apply (like Trump wants).

"U.S Born" == "U.S Citizenship" would be the default assumption of any rational, thinking person. You can add more words to say the same thing but it only ends up being annoying.

"U.S. Born" and "U.S. Citizen" are the same number of words though, so it just seems like you're deliberately obfuscating. Maybe a better headline would be "Two Undocumented Families and Their American Children Deported by ICE." That way we'd save a word and make it unambiguous: these children are Americans.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#138

Post by croes »

xtiansimon wrote: post #12

Of course the administration was lying when it said they would only target “criminals”. Of course it’s impossible to know who “really” is a critical mastermind. (Comic book lives) /s Everyone should pay attention and amplify these stories of targeted non-criminal families, because the “radical left” is next. Joking/not-Joking Here’s another family in Washington state, “A high schooler stays back as his family, separa…

The target only criminals, they just didn’t tell who they see as criminal.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#139

Post by tomrod »

sfasdfasd wrote: post #96
djoldman wrote: post #56

From what research I've seen, the phrasing here should be that non-citizens were deported and chose to bring their US citizen children with them. The children themselves were not deported. This in no way excuses any of the other issues like not allowing contact with legal advocates / attorneys.

[flagged]

So the US born children get to come back of their own accord, right? We're going to afford them the rights that every citizen of and person in this country has, like due process, right? We haven't forgotten the promise of the US to the world, to respect rights even when doing things people don't like, right?

Because if we have, that's an unmitigated bad.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#140

Post by rdtsc »

rsfern wrote: post #105
rdtsc wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US citizens. Children no less. But their parents aren’t. Parents can be deported. So let’s imagine they did that. We’d have an article how cruel they stole / kidnapped a child from their parents. Would that be better? Having a child doesn’t automatically provide a legal cover for staying and not getting deported. Maybe that’s a risk the parents didn’t know about?

No, that is a false dilemma. the right (and constitutional) thing to do is give all these people the due process and access to legal representation that they are entitled to, and work out a legal solution to all these conflicting concerns. read the habeas petition for VMS (the two year old). The child has a US citizen relative and the father seems to have transferred provisional rights of custody to them. PDF: https:…

> The child has a US citizen relative and the father seems to have transferred provisional rights of custody to them.

Right, I think that's the issue here it's not that the parents should be automatically allowed to say, it's that they were not given a chance in court to allow for that process - to find a relative.

There is a complication in the case because the provisional custody was canceled then renewed and transferred to Trish Mack.

> Also on April 22, 2025, V.M.L.’s father executed a Provisional Custody by Mandate under Louisiana Revised Statutes § 9:951, temporarily “delegat[ing] the provisional custody of” his two daughters to his U.S. citizen sister-in-law, who also lives in Baton Rouge, LA. The Mandate was notarized by a valid notary public in the state of Louisiana

> On April 24, 2025, the mandatary named in the Provisional Custody by Mandate terminated the agreement for personal reasons,

> V.M.L.’s father and Next Friend Petitioner Trish Mack executed a new notarized Provisional Custody by Mandate, delegating custodial authority to Ms. Mack

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