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I designed my LED matrix PCB with code

docs.tscircuit.com

21–30 of 68 posts

Re: I designed my LED matrix PCB with code

#21
Interesting, reminds me of a project my colleague has just been working on: using KiCad + python to auto-place LEDs at specific coordinates on a PCB. Instead of positioning them as a regular matrix, the LED locations are derived from the shape of a racing circuit: https://ledsrace.at/zandvoort (routing and non-LED part of the layout was still done manually)

I don't think 100% auto-placement/routing will be able to take over manual layout, but there is definitely lots of potential for further automation!

Re: I designed my LED matrix PCB with code

#22
Slightly tangential, but what's the state of the art in auto routing and placement these days? I haven't tried any since I used EAGLE a few years ago.

I know routing is one of those really hard problems, and for a long time they were all pretty bad at even moderately complex or constrained designs. Have things gotten better recently with the rise of machine learning? (Specifically not 'AI')

Re: I designed my LED matrix PCB with code

#23

Atopile is another thing in the circuits-as-code space: https://github.com/atopile/atopile As a half EE/half SWE I think there are significant benefits to circuits as code but I'm not impressed with this one. Atopile has a narrower focus (autorouters are really really hard) and doesn't use as many buzzwords. Like why on earth does a "web first approach" matter at all for hardware development? But also, GUI tools are…

I don't know why anyone wants to shove big heavy applications into browsers. Are they imagining you'd use your phone for this?

Are we not teaching kids how to publish desktop applications these days or what?

Re: I designed my LED matrix PCB with code

#24
A lot of deserved criticism in the comments here tonight, but more generally, I have to ask - what's the deal with all these code/text to CAD/PCB things?

There's a half dozen of them in any category, they are all different, they all seem to struggle badly with anything outside of simple examples, none of them appear to consider how things fit together in the real world, you almost never see any of them used for anything more complicated than a keyboard layout or an LED matrix, they all have reinvented the wheel instead of using industry standard formats, and they all talk about the "difficulty of using traditional tools" as though placing each XY point in space in your head is easier than dragging things around the screen like in MS Paint. You also never see any serious hardware people use them. Every one wants to do it all from keyboard to finished product instead of being satisfied as a intermediate tool that does one thing well.

But, they all have very polished documentation, they come with examples, they have nice looking websites, and it's obvious someone put a decent amount of thought into making them. It's not like they are useless either. Making a big grid of things? It's nice to be able to write an algorithm to do that instead of entering them by hand.

I brought this up in that post about the LLM to CAD thing the other day. It's like people keep saying "hardware is hard" but then keep trying to solve it like they would work on software problems.

Re: I designed my LED matrix PCB with code

#25
post #24

A lot of deserved criticism in the comments here tonight, but more generally, I have to ask - what's the deal with all these code/text to CAD/PCB things? There's a half dozen of them in any category, they are all different, they all seem to struggle badly with anything outside of simple examples, none of them appear to consider how things fit together in the real world, you almost never see any of them used for anyth…

XY coordinates are more or less temporary. We are working on llm-compatible layout definitions which operate more with constraints or loose auto placement specifications than XY directly eg https://docs.tscircuit.com/footprints/constraint

Re: I designed my LED matrix PCB with code

#26

Interesting, reminds me of a project my colleague has just been working on: using KiCad + python to auto-place LEDs at specific coordinates on a PCB. Instead of positioning them as a regular matrix, the LED locations are derived from the shape of a racing circuit: https://ledsrace.at/zandvoort (routing and non-LED part of the layout was still done manually) I don't think 100% auto-placement/routing will be able to ta…

This is a really good use case, though I'd be surprised if there aren't macros to do simple grid layout already in Altium or KiCad. It's the sort of thing you'd find in a badly documented Eagle userscript. I recently made a smaller PCB with 30 LEDs in a specific colour arrangement and even that was a pain by hand.

Re: I designed my LED matrix PCB with code

#27
post #24

A lot of deserved criticism in the comments here tonight, but more generally, I have to ask - what's the deal with all these code/text to CAD/PCB things? There's a half dozen of them in any category, they are all different, they all seem to struggle badly with anything outside of simple examples, none of them appear to consider how things fit together in the real world, you almost never see any of them used for anyth…

They're aiming to recapitulate the success of HDL design in the IC world. The jitx folks are pretty clear about that. There are a lot of problems with that that could be a medium-sized think piece, but some things folks are doing in the space are neat. PCB-level EDA is overdue for better design checks, for example.

Re: I designed my LED matrix PCB with code

#28

Slightly tangential, but what's the state of the art in auto routing and placement these days? I haven't tried any since I used EAGLE a few years ago. I know routing is one of those really hard problems, and for a long time they were all pretty bad at even moderately complex or constrained designs. Have things gotten better recently with the rise of machine learning? (Specifically not 'AI')

Most routers (including humans) haven't even figured out that you can run traces in more than just 8 directions :) I quite like autorouted boards in TopoR for this reason, but it's hardly cutting edge; been around for decades.

I hear Altium has some pretty decent autorouting. The problem here is that by the time you've set up all the grouping, constraints and settings to get an auto route that works well, you probably could have just routed the board yourself. So I've never used it once. There's still no magic button you can click once to make a full routed board. As far as I know, autorouting for all the big players is still based on tried and true algorithms like A-star. They might be getting a little better year over year, but not so much so that anyone noticed.

I have seen quite a few improvements in manual routing though. It seems like the manual routing tool has gotten better at pushing traces out of the way, and if you move a routed component you might not need to redraw all the traces going to it anymore.

Re: I designed my LED matrix PCB with code

#29

Atopile is another thing in the circuits-as-code space: https://github.com/atopile/atopile As a half EE/half SWE I think there are significant benefits to circuits as code but I'm not impressed with this one. Atopile has a narrower focus (autorouters are really really hard) and doesn't use as many buzzwords. Like why on earth does a "web first approach" matter at all for hardware development? But also, GUI tools are…

> I don't see circuit-as-code taking off with humans anytime soon

I don't agree with this. Circuits aren't really anything more complex than anything else humanity has had to figure out. Most knowledge in this area seems solvable.

Maxwell's equations have been known for a century.

For whatever reason, Software Engineering and Hardware Engineering even though they rely upon the same fundamental physics, are so very different? And apparently can't be reconciled? No. I don't believe it.

Re: I designed my LED matrix PCB with code

#30
post #29

Atopile is another thing in the circuits-as-code space: https://github.com/atopile/atopile As a half EE/half SWE I think there are significant benefits to circuits as code but I'm not impressed with this one. Atopile has a narrower focus (autorouters are really really hard) and doesn't use as many buzzwords. Like why on earth does a "web first approach" matter at all for hardware development? But also, GUI tools are…

> I don't see circuit-as-code taking off with humans anytime soon I don't agree with this. Circuits aren't really anything more complex than anything else humanity has had to figure out. Most knowledge in this area seems solvable. Maxwell's equations have been known for a century. For whatever reason, Software Engineering and Hardware Engineering even though they rely upon the same fundamental physics, are so very di…

PCB layout is as much art and black magic as it is science. I'm not sure why you dismiss the complexity so easily, this definitely is not just a matter of applying Maxwell's equations.
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