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FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

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Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#611

Post by marcusverus »

Centigonal wrote: post #193
kemayo wrote: post #16

> He accused Dugan of “intentionally misdirecting” federal agents who arrived at the courthouse to detain an immigrant who was set to appear before her in an unrelated proceeding. It sounds like the arrest isn't because of any official act of the judge, but rather over them either not telling the ICE agents where the person was or giving them the wrong information about their location. There are some pretty broad law…

What would have been the right move for Dugan here, according to ICE? Can a judge legally detain a defendant after a pre-trial hearing on the basis of "there are some agents asking about you for unrelated reasons?"

He showed the defendant out a side door to help him avoid ICE, who were waiting at the main door.

> What would have been the right move for Dugan here, according to ICE?

The right move was to not violate the law by taking steps which were intended to help the defendant evade ICE.

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#612

Post by timewizard »

kemayo wrote: post #16

> He accused Dugan of “intentionally misdirecting” federal agents who arrived at the courthouse to detain an immigrant who was set to appear before her in an unrelated proceeding. It sounds like the arrest isn't because of any official act of the judge, but rather over them either not telling the ICE agents where the person was or giving them the wrong information about their location. There are some pretty broad law…

> not telling the ICE agents where the person was or giving them the wrong information about their location.

Officers of the court have a higher responsibility to report the truth and cooperate with official processes than regular citizens.

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#613

Post by southernplaces7 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #214
kemayo wrote: post #16

> He accused Dugan of “intentionally misdirecting” federal agents who arrived at the courthouse to detain an immigrant who was set to appear before her in an unrelated proceeding. It sounds like the arrest isn't because of any official act of the judge, but rather over them either not telling the ICE agents where the person was or giving them the wrong information about their location. There are some pretty broad law…

Under any occasion, it was inappropriate to arrest a judge like this. We’re honestly at the point where I’d be comfortable with armed militias defending state and local institutions from federal police. If only to force someone to think twice about something like this. (To be clear, I’m not happy we’re here. But we are.)

Yes except that the very same armed types, after years of being derided by Democrat and progressive types as ignorant rednecks, are the least likely (for now at least) to defend a judge being targeted for protecting immigrants by the Trump administration. I know of no armed militia types that are of the opposing political persuasion, being armed is just a bit too kitsch and crude for them it seems. Maybe they reconsider their views of armed resistance in these years.

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#614

Post by pseudo0 »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #588
pseudo0 wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not what is alleged in the complaint: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.wied.11... The allegation is that the judge got upset that ICE was waiting outside the courtroom, sent the law enforcement officers to the chief judge's office, and then adjourned the hearing without notifying the prosecutor and snuck the man with a warrant out through a non-public door not normally used by defendants.…

You are basically saying that everybody has to help ICE for free and on occasion do the job of ICE for free. That’s very totalitarian. At the same time, it is settled law that a police officer cannot be held liable for not protecting citizens or not arresting someone. So you have more obligations than a police officer yet getting none of the pay or legal protections Imagine you were a private tutor, in a private scho…

ICE had a warrant. They were being courteous to the court by waiting until after the hearing instead of scooping the guy up on his way in.

And no, you don't have to help ICE, you just can't obstruct them. Sneaking a suspect out a back door while you stall the police is textbook, classic obstruction.

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#616

Post by ClumsyPilot »

sanderjd wrote: post #333
bluGill wrote: post #19

This will be interesting for the 5th amendment. They cannot arrest you for putting "drug dealer" on your tax forms as your job since you are compelled to answer that question honestly. The defendant was compelled to appear in court which means he couldn't protect his own privacy by being elsewhere - are these the same thing? I don't know how courts will see it, but it is an interesting legal question that I hope some…

The thesis is that immigrants have no constitutional rights because they aren't citizens, or the stronger form, that they are invaders and thus enemy combatants. The Supreme Court is going to have to clarify the existence or non-existence of constitutional rights for people living here unlawfully. And then the populace is going to have to make sure that the president doesn't conclude that he can ignore that ruling if…

Is that a serious thesis anyone serious is entertaining ? Would that mean that you can defraud or kill a tourist with no consequences?

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#617

Post by Gabriel54 »

Animats wrote: post #602

A key point here, which the judge brought up with the ICE agents, is that they only had an "administrative warrant".[1] An “ICE warrant” is not a real warrant. It is not reviewed by a judge or any neutral party to determine if it is based on probable cause. "An immigration officer from ICE or CBP may not enter any nonpublic areas—or areas that are not freely accessible to the public and hence carry a higher expectati…

There is no suggestion that the agents conducted a search or entered a non-public area. And this has nothing to do with the claim that the judge actively obstructed their efforts.

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#618

Post by _mlbt »

whoknowsidont wrote: post #457
_mlbt wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Something very wrong with sending deportation notices or trying to sic immigration enforcement on American citizens. I must have missed that, when did that happen?

You missed one of the biggest news stories that has been running for months across every available medium (television, radio, internet, even here on HN)? You want to shed some light on how that's possible, especially in the context of you commenting on this thread?

I usually get my left leaning news stories from Apple News and my right leaning news from the Daily Wire. I didn’t see this story on any of my usual sources.

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#619

Post by timewizard »

cactacea wrote: post #454

ICE has absolutely no business in state courthouses. The federal interest in enforcing immigration law should not be placed above the state's interest in enforcing equal protection under the law. Consider the case of a undocumented rape victim. Do they not deserve justice? Are we better off letting a rapist go free when their victim cannot testify against them because they were deported? I think not and I do not want…

> Are we better off letting a rapist go free when their victim cannot testify against them because they were deported?

That's not an actual outcome that would occur. Cases can proceed if the victim is unavailable. Do we let a rapist off because their victim had an untimely death? Obviously not.

In the case of a deportee, if we have a sworn statement from them, or can remotely depose them, then their testimony would be included in the trial.

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#620

Post by godelski »

Gabriel54 wrote: post #523
mmanfrin wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is the purpose of laws if they are willfully ignored? Nearly every liberty we take for granted was at one point against the law or gained through willful lawbreaking. A healthy society should be tolerant of some bending of the rules.

I agree with you. A quick search suggests that there are 11 million undocumented people in the United States, or about 3% of the population. A healthy society does not harbor 11 million people without documentation so they can be exploited by employers for cheap labor, not given proper health care and labor rights.

Is the number really that crazy if we consider the context?

- America is a land of opportunities. It is BY FAR the country with the largest number of legal immigrants[0]. There are ~51M in the US and the second is Germany with ~16M. I think it makes sense that given the extremely high demand to come to the US, it is unsurprising that many do so illegally. Especially when the costs of staying in your own country are so high.

- How would you even go about documenting them, determining status, and then following due process[1]. Tricky situation. It's does not only create a dystopian authoritarian hellscape to constantly check everyone's status, but it is also really expensive to do so! Random stops interfere with average citizens and violates our constitutional rights. Rights created explicitly because the people founding this country were experienced with such situations...

I mean I also agree with your point that they are being exploited and that there's been this silent quid pro quo (even if one party is getting the shit end of the deal). But also I think people really need to consider what it actually takes to get the things they want. Certainly we can do better and certainly we shouldn't exploit them. But importantly, which is more important: the rights of a citizen or punishing illegal immigrants? There has to be a balance because these are coupled. For one, I'm with Jefferson, I'd rather a hundred guilty men go free than a single innocent be stripped of their freedom. You can't pick and choose. The rules have to apply to everyone or they apply to no one. There are always costs, and the most deadly costs are those that are hard to see.

[0] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/immigrati...

[1] I cannot stress enough how critical due process is. If we aren't going to have due process, then we don't have any laws. Full stop. If we don't have due process, then the only law is your second amendment right, and that's not what anyone wants.

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