FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities • Hacker News Board

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#391

Post by duxup » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 5:04 PM UTC

kemayo wrote: post #16

> He accused Dugan of “intentionally misdirecting” federal agents who arrived at the courthouse to detain an immigrant who was set to appear before her in an unrelated proceeding. It sounds like the arrest isn't because of any official act of the judge, but rather over them either not telling the ICE agents where the person was or giving them the wrong information about their location. There are some pretty broad law…

Doesn't seem to make sense that ICE should be able to interrupt a preceding at will.

And the fact that they left and came back and someone they wanted wasn't there, that's on them....

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#392

Post by xpe » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 5:04 PM UTC

nwienert wrote: post #101

huitzitziltzin wrote: post #24

This feels like a “break glass in case of emergency” kind of moment. Sure there are no details yet, but I’m trying to imagine details which would make me think “that arrest makes sense.” If I were in Milwaukee I’d be in the streets.

[flagged]

I think the claim underneath the comment above is that immigration laws have been not been enforced or unevenly been enforced. On principle, advocating for a consistent application of the law seems sensible. This goes along with advocating for the rule of law.

Let's talk about justice, too. Many people believe true justice transcends any particular instantiation of the law at any particular point in time. If so, advocating for the consistent application of all laws can only be truly just if the laws are just.

Look at present circumstances. Reporting has shown that Trump is doing extraordinary rendition: removing people without due process. And not bringing them home after admitting the mistake. Once this reality is factored in, where is the justice in consistently applying a law in order to extrajudicially render a person?

Clearly, the Trump administration has a double standard regarding the rule of law and the role of the judiciary.

Note: this comment surely needs another draft, but I'm running out of time. I welcome all criticism.

P.S. At the risk of surfacing even more complexity, even if a system were to consistently apply one set of criteria, such as ICE's authority to arrest, it is likely that other criteria apply; namely, allocating personnel in a way that best carries out their overall mission. It is my (educated) guess that practical concerns (such as resource limitations) is one of the reasons courts give administrative agencies considerable flexibility in what laws they enforce.

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#393

Post by pc86 » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 5:04 PM UTC

hackinthebochs wrote: post #315

whats_a_quasar wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You can beat the rap but not the ride" is phrased like the judge actually did anything wrong. That seems very doubtful. This administration has shown they are not entitled to the presumption that they are acting in good faith.

"You can't beat the ride" is saying that cops can punish you regardless of whether what you did was illegal.

That's certainly one interpretation of it, and a pretty reasonable one. However, I typically interpret it as "if the police think you've committed a crime, you are going to jail and almost nothing is going to stop that." In that incredibly famous "Don't Talk to the Police" talk[0], the attorney asks the former-cop-turned-law-student if he's every been convinced not to arrest someone based on what the suspect said. Not a single time in his entire law enforcement career.

This is also sort of the crux of the talk - if nothing you can say will convince the police not to arrest you, and things you do say can make things worse, your best bet is to just shut up and talk to an attorney if it gets to that point.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#394

Post by alistairSH » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 5:04 PM UTC

Aeolun wrote: post #180

rchaud wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine they'll soon be putting a spin on George W Bush-era legal arguments about the applicability of Geneva Conventions on "non-uniformed combatants". In this case, if the ICE agents weren't uniformed at the time of arrest, they can't be considered agents of the federal government, and thus can't be subject to legal redress.

Does that mean they’ll just be trespassers that can be shot if they enter your property unannounced like a gang of hooligans?

In theory, but how many of them are you going to shoot before they shoot back?

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#395

Post by epistasis » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 5:06 PM UTC

fnordpiglet wrote: post #321

pjc50 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> incredibly doubtful that they could be successfully prosecuted for this. But they can be successfully arrested. You can beat the rap but not the ride, etc. The US is not yet at the level of dysfunction where jurisdiction is settled with gunfire, but ICE seem to be determined to move that closer.

The fact the FBI participated in this arrest is chilling. ICE being a proto secret police seems to be perceived already. The FBI now? There’s question whether the ICE agents even had legal grounds to demand arrest regardless, whether they had a warrant, etc - and the facts established are pretty clearly not prosecutable. So this is pure intimidation, going after the judicial in what will likely be a flagrantly abusiv…

This is certainly not the first autocratic act of the FBI under Patel. They have been thoroughly compromised and lost integrity even before this arrest.

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#396

Post by alistairSH » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 5:06 PM UTC

Supermancho wrote: post #17

AFAICT, the summary: Judge (or the courthouse in some regard) assured immigrants-of-interest^ would not be detained in courthouse, to speed up legal proceedings and to try to ensure equitable justice was being served. An immigrant was identified by ICE and the judge directed ICE somewhere and when the immigrant was not apprehended (maybe appeared in court for his 3 BATTERY misdemeanors), the FBI was called in to arre…

We don't know if that's correct because, unless it's surfaced in the last hour, we haven't seen anybody's account of what happened before the arrest (other than some high-level appointees tweeting).

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#397

Post by epistasis » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 5:07 PM UTC

gitfan86 wrote: post #380

fnordpiglet wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact the FBI participated in this arrest is chilling. ICE being a proto secret police seems to be perceived already. The FBI now? There’s question whether the ICE agents even had legal grounds to demand arrest regardless, whether they had a warrant, etc - and the facts established are pretty clearly not prosecutable. So this is pure intimidation, going after the judicial in what will likely be a flagrantly abusiv…

[flagged]

The executive must also uphold the constitution, no matter what vague campaign promises were made.

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#398

Post by lolinder » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 5:07 PM UTC

crooked-v wrote: post #319

jawiggins wrote: post #291

The AP article [1] has the full complaint linked, the crux of the case seems to be around the judge allowing the defendant to leave through a back entrance ("jury door") when they were aware agents were waiting in the public hallway to make an arrest as they exited. " 29. Multiple witnesses have described their observations after Judge DUGAN returned to her courtroom after directing members of the arrest team to the…

I find it extremely doubtful that she told the agents he'd be leaving through a particular door or that she had any legal obligation to make sure the man exited in a particular way.

What's being alleged is that she deliberately escorted the man out through an exit that is not usually made available to members of the public, instead of allowing him to leave through the regular door that would likely have put him right into the hands of ICE. If that was done with the intent of helping him evade arrest (which, if the story above is accurate, seems likely), it seems very reasonable to charge her with obstruction.

None of that is to say that what she did was morally wrong—often the law and morality are at odds.

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#399

Post by duxup » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 5:07 PM UTC

dudeinjapan wrote: post #248

kemayo wrote: post #16

> He accused Dugan of “intentionally misdirecting” federal agents who arrived at the courthouse to detain an immigrant who was set to appear before her in an unrelated proceeding. It sounds like the arrest isn't because of any official act of the judge, but rather over them either not telling the ICE agents where the person was or giving them the wrong information about their location. There are some pretty broad law…

Umm… why didn’t the agents just wait patiently until the proceeding was done?

It does seem like they could have gotten what they wanted by just trying to do their job a little more such as, waiting.

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#400

Post by 542354234235 » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 5:07 PM UTC

kemayo wrote: post #168

willis936 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I'm not saying it's good, for sure. But I don't think it's a sign that the push for autocratic authoritarianism is winning , either. My optimistic take is that this is the sort of stupid overreach that works to turn other arms of government against the executive. The judiciary tends to be prickly about its prerogatives, and Trump's far from the point where he can just push stuff through without some cover.

Trump is calling for the Fed's Jerome Powell to be fired for not lying and saying everything will be fine as a result of tariffs. He pulled the security clearance of former CISA Director Chris Krebs, and anyone associated with him, for not lying about the result of his cyber security investigation of the 2020 election. He also pulled security clearances for political rivals including Biden, Harris, and Cheney as well as the Attorneys General involved in his civil case for fraud, which he lost and was ordered to pay $355 million.

This is blatant and unambiguous. "If you cross me, I will use executive power to destroy you". There is no optimistic view of this.