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On loyalty to your employer (2018)

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Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#281

Post by margorczynski »

martindbp wrote: post #162
maccard wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the middle ground is healthy. I'm in my early 30's, I have a job that I get to "create" in (I make video games). > I immediately wondered if this individual had a family, friends. Had this person already seen the world and its many sights and wonders? Had they already experienced everything good there is to experience in this one lifetime that they were so bored of it that they would prefer to work instead? H…

> I would _much_ rather live in a nice house in a nice area with exciting things to do from my mid 20's onwards and enjoy those things for years and years and years, rather than live in a smaller/cheaper/farther out place so that I can retire 10 years earlier and start living. That's a false dichotomy. You can retire at least 25-30 years earlier than normal if you are a bit mindful of your spending and earn a decent…

> You can retire at least 25-30 years earlier than normal if you are a bit mindful of your spending and earn a decent salary

I love how detached from reality some people on HN are. I assume by "decent salary" you mean $150k+ per year?

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#283

Post by geodel »

gamerdonkey wrote: post #218
geodel wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excellent points. Considering I have heard these "Deathbed Quotes" so many times with similar sounding refrain I am just inclined to ignore them. And most people I know and see do drop work for family and friends ever so often as much their situation permits.

> And most people I know and see do drop work for family and friends ever so often as much their situation permits. Your experiences today may well be the result of this idea becoming more and more pervasive over the past 30 or so years, and the resulting reduction in employee loyalty to their employers.

To be honest this loyalty thing seems to me was promoted by corporate management hucksters and now no loyalty phenomenon is getting promoted by alternate lifestyle peddlers. Most people I have seen at work and outside in all these years just work enough that bleak alternatives don't become reality.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#284

Post by ivape »

swatcoder wrote: post #177
rckt wrote: post #103

I got it pretty early in my career that loyalty for a company is concept to make you work harder without asking anything in return. And the moment the company shifts focus and you are out of it, then suddenly you understand that this loyalty wasn't kind of a credits account which you've been saving all this time. It's simply nothing. You are on your own and can fuck off. So there's simply no place for loyalty in empl…

Keep in mind that the benefits of loyalty vary with the size of the organization and the number peers your name gets lost among in the org chart. The larger the company, and the more they're ballooned out with abstract drones chomping on abstract work items, the more loyalty becomes a means for abuse. Turnover is rampant and their processes are built to optimally accommodate it. They're egregores, not people, and the…

The larger the company, and the more they're ballooned out with abstract drones chomping on abstract work items

I was actually thinking about this the other day. When an employer implements an "aloof" layer between the work done and the bottom line, the employer and employee don't get to bond. You and your company should be on the same page when it comes to generating business and on the same page when it comes to concerns. Shipmates, for real. With layers of management of all varieties (middle management, project management, developer management (this is tricky because the Dev Lead becomes your only connection to the bottom line)), the "aloofness" leads to unfulfilled lives. That's when the employee doesn't feel fulfilled or understands who they are on the ship. And it follows that the captain(s) of the ship (leadership) are unfulfilled because they are no longer in love with the crew (can easily fire, hire, layoff, disconnect from the employees lives). I haven't fully thought this thought out so I will probably expand on it as time goes on, but this is my line of thinking at the moment.

It's a love issue due to a lack of direct bonding (and no, company social gatherings and "fun" is not the bonding I am talking about. I am talking about taking on Moby Dick together). The love is indirectly routed through these other layers until it's been fully diluted and misunderstood, unfulfilling to all. Everyone must love the ship, the crew, the captain, the ocean, and the whale they are hunting.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#285

Post by dogleash »

kemayo wrote: post #172
rckt wrote: post #103

I got it pretty early in my career that loyalty for a company is concept to make you work harder without asking anything in return. And the moment the company shifts focus and you are out of it, then suddenly you understand that this loyalty wasn't kind of a credits account which you've been saving all this time. It's simply nothing. You are on your own and can fuck off. So there's simply no place for loyalty in empl…

You can think of mutual-loyalty as an extended transaction, if you prefer. If, in exchange for you not planning on leaving the company, the company actively does its best to treat you well and preserve your job long-term, that can be a good trade-off. The mutuality is important. You absolutely shouldn't think of yourself as "loyal" to a company that won't stick up for you. (And many companies won't, to be clear. If a…

> the company actively does its best to treat you well and preserve your job long-term

Like fuck they do. They make a cost-benefit guess about proactive moves to reduce attrition, and the amount they do is tied the cost of replacement for the role in question.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#286

Post by samspot »

Article points are mostly all valid, don't give your loyalty in return for abuse, etc. etc.

But I've been at my employer 11 years now and I have greatly prospered. They took care of me in many ways that aren't required by law, and gave great benefits. They didn't abuse me or take undue time from my family. They constantly invest in my career -- for their ultimate benefit, yes, but I benefit too. If and when I get transactioned out, I'll have no regrets.

It's ok to reward an employer with some loyalty for treating you well.

But also, this quote needs to be here :)

Would I ever leave this company? Look, I’m all about loyalty, In fact, I feel like part of what I’m being paid for here is my loyalty, But if there were somewhere else that valued loyalty more highly… I’m going wherever they value loyalty the most. — Dwight Schrute

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#287

Post by throwaway7783 »

b112 wrote: post #242
throwaway7783 wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree in parts. Loyalty and corresponding benefits are a local optima. But when the macro is controlled and influenced by external (to the local) forces, and these forces have power, loyalty means nothing in terms of security. But you will still have good relationships with people and new opportunities may surface as a benefit. But loyalty to a company is complete, utter BS.

There are good and bad companies. How you are treated is how you gauge it, and good companies do deserve "working" loyality. This is different from personal loyalty. It's a little like politeness. Social grace. Don't demean yourself of course, but treating entities which treat you well reciprocally is valid and even moral.

A good or a bad company is really defined by people you work with - your team. Countless conversations in other forums where you'll see radically opposite opinions about the the "company" from different employees. It all boils down to the local working context. Companies are companies - maximizing profit is their primary goal (at least in the US). There may certainly be some exceptions. Entities don't treat a person in any way. It is the people in the entities that treat you well or not. Entities are impersonal.

If the CEO, who is 6 levels removed from me makes a decision to cut an entire department, it is hard to see how "company" loyalty makes sense. As far as I'm concerned, the CEO is an external force.

Social grace, treating people well who treat you well - I agree with all that. But that is not loyalty. It is simply transactional reciprocality. If you are calling that "working loyalty", fine, we are on the same page.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#288

Post by emgeee »

jjmarr wrote: post #267
swatcoder wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that the benefits of loyalty vary with the size of the organization and the number peers your name gets lost among in the org chart. The larger the company, and the more they're ballooned out with abstract drones chomping on abstract work items, the more loyalty becomes a means for abuse. Turnover is rampant and their processes are built to optimally accommodate it. They're egregores, not people, and the…

My parents told me to be loyal to people , not companies . People get me a job when I look for one.

I agree. Tenures may be short but careers are long and tech is (surprisingly) small. Credibility builds trust and trust between people is ultimately what business run on. "Do right be people" is a good strategy.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#289

Post by kemayo »

dogleash wrote: post #285
kemayo wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can think of mutual-loyalty as an extended transaction, if you prefer. If, in exchange for you not planning on leaving the company, the company actively does its best to treat you well and preserve your job long-term, that can be a good trade-off. The mutuality is important. You absolutely shouldn't think of yourself as "loyal" to a company that won't stick up for you. (And many companies won't, to be clear. If a…

> the company actively does its best to treat you well and preserve your job long-term Like fuck they do. They make a cost-benefit guess about proactive moves to reduce attrition, and the amount they do is tied the cost of replacement for the role in question.

There's a reason I put "if" before that.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#290

Post by einpoklum »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #4

> “When I’m on my deathbed, I won’t look back at my life and wish I had worked harder. I’ll look back and wish I spent more time with the people I loved.” I saw a Reddit thread the other day on r/startups or r/entrepreneur where the OP was talking about how they'll be working until the day he or she dies. I immediately wondered if this individual had a family, friends. Had this person already seen the world and its m…

When I'm on my deathbed, I'll probably wish I'd worked harder - on trying to stop Israel (= where I live) 's genocide in Gaza. That's what I feel most guilty about.
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