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The hidden cost of AI coding

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Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#121
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those of us who write software professionally are literally in a field premised on automating other people's jobs away. There is no profession with less claim to the moral high ground of worker rights than ours.

Bit of a tangent but... Haven't we been automating jobs away since the industrial revolution? I know AI may be an exception to this trend, but at least with classical programming, demand goes up, GDP per capita goes up, and new industries are born. I mean, there's three ways to get stuff done: do it yourself, get someone else to do it, or get a machine to do it. #2 doesn't scale, since someone still has to do it. If…

We have always automated, because we can.

What is qualitatively different this time is that it affects intellectual abilities - there is nothing higher up in the work "food chain". Replacing physical work you could always argue you'd have time to focus on making decisions. Replacing decision making might mean telling people go sit on the beach and take your universal basic income (UBI) cheque, we don't need you anymore.

Sitting on the beach is not as nice as it sounds for some; if you don't agree, try doing it for 5 years. Most people require work to have some sense of purpose, it gives identity, and it structures their time.

Furthermore, if you replaced lorry drivers with self-driving cars, you'd destroy the most commonly held job in North America as well as South America, and don't tell me that they can be retrained to be AI engineers or social media influencers instead (some can only be on the road, some only want to be on the road).

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#122
The post focuses on flow, but depending on what you mean by it, it isn't necessarily a good thing. Trying to solve something almost too difficult usually gets you out of flow. You still need concentration, though.

My main worry about AI is that people just keep using the garbage that exists instead of trying to produce something better, because AI takes away much of the pain of interacting with garbage. But most people are already perfectly fine using garbage, so probably not much will change here.

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They perhaps haven’t taken away your keyboard but anecdotally, a few friends work at places where their boss is requiring them to use the LLMs. So you may not have to code with them but some people are starting to be chained to them.

Yes, there are bad places to work. There are also places that require detailed time tracking, do not allow any time to write tests, have very long hours, tons of on-call alerts, etc.

You write that like the latter is in opposition to the former. Yet the content suggests the latter is the former

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#124
The author is already an experienced programmer. Let me toss in an anecdote about the next generation of programmers. Vibe coding: also called playing pinball with the AI, hoping something useful comes out.

I taught a lecture in my first-semester programming course yesterday. This is in a program for older students, mostly working while going back to school. Each time, a few students are selected to present their code for an exercise that I pick randomly from those they were assigned.

This guy had fancy slides showing his code, but he was basically just reading the code off the page. So I ask him: “hey, that method you call, what exactly does it do?”.

Um…

So I ask "Ok, the result from that method is assigned to a variable. What kind of variable is it?" Note that this is Java, the data type is explicitly declared, so the answer is sitting there on his slide.

Um…

So I tear into him. You got this from ChatGPT. That’s fine, if you need the help, but you need to understand what you get. Otherwise you’ll never get a job in IT.

His answer: “I already have a job in IT.”

Fsck. There is your vibe coder. You really do not want them working on anything that you care about.

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#125

There's nothing stopping you from coding if you enjoy it. It's not like they have taken away your keyboard. I have found that AI frees me up to focus on the parts of coding I'm actually interested in, which is maybe 5-10% of the project. The rest is boiler plate, cargo-culted, Dockerfile, build system and bash environment variable passing circle of hell that I really could care less about. I care about certain things…

I think you're robbing yourself.

Of course, it all depends how you use the LLM. While the same can be true for StackOverflow, the LLMs just scale the issues up.

  > The rest is boiler plate, cargo-culted, Dockerfile, build system and bash environment variable passing circle of hell that I really could care less about.
Except you do care. It's why you're frustrated and annoyed. And good!!! That feeling is because what you're describing requires solving. If something is routine, automate it. But it's really not good to automate in a statistical way, especially when that statistical tool is optimized for human preference. Because remember that also means mistakes are optimized to be missed by humans.[0]

With expertise in anything, I'm sorry, but you also got to do the shit work. To be a great musician you gotta practice boring scales. It's true even if you just want to be a sub par one.

But a little grumpy is good. It drives you to fix things, and frankly, that's our job. The things that are annoying and creating friction don't need be repeated over and over, they need alternative solutions. The scripts you build are valuable. The "useless" knowledge you gain isn't so useless. Those little details add up without you knowing and make you better.

That undocumented code makes you frustrated and reminds you to document your own. You don't want to be a hypocrite. The author of the thing you're using probably thought the same thing: "No one is gonna use this garbage, I'm not going to waste my time documenting it". Yet here we are. Over and over again yet we don't learn the lesson.

I'm not gonna deny there's assholes. There are. But even assholes teach you. At worst, they teach you how not to act.

And some people are you telling you to RTM and not RTFM. Sure, it has lots of extra information in it that you don't need to get your specific job done, but have you also considered that it has lots of extra information in it? The person that wrote it clearly thought the context was important. Maybe it isn't. In that case, you learned a lesson in how not to write documentation!

What I'm getting at is that there's a lot of learning done all over the place. Trying to take out all the work and only have "the fun" is harming yourself and has a large potential to make less time for the fun stuff[0]. I'd be surprised if I'm alone in this, but a lot of stuff I enjoy now was stuff that originally frustrated me. IME this is pretty common! It's true for every person I know. Similarly, it's also true for things I learned that I thought I'd never use again. It always has a way of coming back.

I'm not going to pretend it's all fun and games. I'm explicitly saying it's not. But I'm confident in the long run it's better. Despite the lack of accuracy, I use LLMs (and Google, and even the TFM) like I would a solution guide the homework problems when I was in school. Try first, then consult. The struggle is an investment in your future. It sucks, but if all the best things in life were easy then we'd all have them. I'm just trying to convince you that it pays off.

I'm completely aware this is all context dependent. There's a time and place for everything. But given the percentages you mention (even taken as exaggeration), something sounds wrong. It's hard to suggest specific solutions without details but I'd be surprised if there weren't better and more rewarding solutions than having the LLM do it for you

[0] That's the big danger and what drives distrust in them. Because you need to work extra hard to find mistakes, increasing workload, not decreasing, because debugging is most of the job!

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The rest is boiler plate, cargo-culted, Dockerfile, build system and bash environment variable passing circle of hell that I really could care less about. Even more so, I remember making a Chrome extension and feeling intimidated. I knew that I'd be comfortable with most of it given that JS is used but I just didn't know how to start. With an LLM it is way faster to spin up some default config and get going versus…

> What I've noticed in that respect is that I just read what it does and then immediately reason why it's there .... How if it hallucinate and gives you wrong code and explanation? It is better to read documentations and tutorials first.

> How if it hallucinate and gives you wrong code

Then the code won't compile, or more likely your editor/IDE will say that it's invalid code. If you're using something like Cursor in agent mode, if invalid code is generated then it gets detected and the LLM keeps re-running until something is valid.

> It is better to read documentations and tutorials first.

I "trust" LLM's more than tutorials, there's so much garbage out there. For documentation, if the LLM suggests something, you can see the docstrings in your IDE. A lot of the time that's enough. If not, I usually go read the implementation if I _actually_ care about how something works, because you can't always trust documentation either.

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The rest is boiler plate, cargo-culted, Dockerfile, build system and bash environment variable passing circle of hell that I really could care less about. Even more so, I remember making a Chrome extension and feeling intimidated. I knew that I'd be comfortable with most of it given that JS is used but I just didn't know how to start. With an LLM it is way faster to spin up some default config and get going versus…

> What I've noticed in that respect is that I just read what it does and then immediately reason why it's there .... How if it hallucinate and gives you wrong code and explanation? It is better to read documentations and tutorials first.

Even when it hallucinates it still solves most of the unknown unknowns which is good for getting you unblocked. It's probably close enough to get some terms to search for.

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#130
post #105
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "verify it rigorously (which if you cannot do, you should absolutely never touch an LLM!)" 100% this.

You have an automation bias. "Surely this thing knows more than me it must be right." and there is no reason to believe that, but you will.

How did you get there from me agreeing 100% with someone who said that you should be ready to verify everything an LLM does for you and if you're not willing to do that you shouldn't use them at all?

Do you ever read my comments, or do you just imagine what I might have said and reply to that?

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