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Stop teaching calculating; Start teaching math

computerbasedmath.org

31–40 of 80 posts

Re: Stop teaching calculating; Start teaching math

#31
post #10
post #7

I think he argues from the wrong point. Yes, we need to teach math, not calculating. No, the argument is not "because we can do calculating with computers today". Lockhart got it right in his famous lament - the problem is that we face a system of self-sustaining bullshit that actually thinks it's teaching math. My guess is that Conrad Wolfram probably plans to conveniently also sell the accompanying software for thi…

I recently had the experience of helping a young algebra student with her homework. She is very bright and is in an accelerated math program that teaches algebra in the 7th grade. However, it was so disappointing to see the curriculum. I was in the same accelerated program 15 years ago and the curriculum hadn't changed a bit. It was still vague and unhelpful. They sent her home for the summer with a large packet of p…

I've noticed the same thing in all the school curricula I've seen. The word problems are often vague, and all to often completely ambiguous. They require guessing what the question writer had in mind when she wrote the question, which are usually unstated assumptions that apply only to the way math is done in schools. This is not the way to teach the kind of precise thinking and careful definition of terms that one needs to understand why math is the way it is: the “study of precisely defined objects.”

Teachers, if you want your pupils to understand how to create a mathematical problem from a description of a practical one, you must train them first to state the situation with absolute precision and without ambiguity. The best way to do that is, as in the teaching of all virtues, to fastidiously follow that habit yourself. That the questions in math textbooks fail to do that so often is another sign of the enormous institutionality of our education problems.

Re: Stop teaching calculating; Start teaching math

#32
post #10
post #7

I think he argues from the wrong point. Yes, we need to teach math, not calculating. No, the argument is not "because we can do calculating with computers today". Lockhart got it right in his famous lament - the problem is that we face a system of self-sustaining bullshit that actually thinks it's teaching math. My guess is that Conrad Wolfram probably plans to conveniently also sell the accompanying software for thi…

I recently had the experience of helping a young algebra student with her homework. She is very bright and is in an accelerated math program that teaches algebra in the 7th grade. However, it was so disappointing to see the curriculum. I was in the same accelerated program 15 years ago and the curriculum hadn't changed a bit. It was still vague and unhelpful. They sent her home for the summer with a large packet of p…

  > how one year a variable would mean one thing and the next
  > year it would mean something else
I'm probably misunderstanding what you mean, but isn't that the purpose of a variable? In programming, a variable foo in one method which represents Widget objects is completely independent from a variable foo in another method which represents Gadget objects. In math, solving for X in one problem might be to find the missing angle X, but in another problem it might be to determine the elapsed seconds X.

Re: Stop teaching calculating; Start teaching math

#33
post #19

This is sad. Really sad. My personal opinion is that Americans just dislike academic matters so much that they are incapable of forming a coherent solution for their children's schooling. Let me tell you some personal anecdotes. I moved to Minnesota during my High school senior year from Vietnam. It sucked: I couldn't hold on to conversations, and people couldn't understand my pronunciation; so I was bored and very l…

I'm all for giving kids challenges, but doing hand calculation isn't hard, it's just tedious. Computers do these calculations faster and with fewer mistakes, and everyone working in the real world uses them every day to do even simple calculations. If we stop spending as much time on calculations we can move kids more quickly into advanced concepts - with the side benefit of fewer kids being turned off math by how boring the first years can be.

It's the same thing for teaching kids cursive writing. Why are schools wasting time with cursive when they should be teaching typing/keyboarding skills? Cursive writing is very quickly going the way of calligraphy.

Re: Stop teaching calculating; Start teaching math

#34
post #9

Of course, his main point is to advocate for using computers to teach and learn math; he's selling Mathematica/Wolfram Alpha. But this is dangerous and a little shallow. And here is why. Math is the language of science; just like a C -- or any other programming language -- is a language of computing; just like English is a language of humans. There are many ways to learn a language, but I think they all have somethin…

I like your analogy with learning a language, and I would use that analogy to say the current education system is only teaching grammar rules. Imagine sitting for hours a day for an entire school year conjugating verbs without ever reading a story, listening to a conversation, or trying to pronounce words.

There is so much more to mathematics than calculation. Proofs, number theory, and simulations can all be understood by children and are much more important to their education than long division.

Re: Stop teaching calculating; Start teaching math

#35
post #7

I think he argues from the wrong point. Yes, we need to teach math, not calculating. No, the argument is not "because we can do calculating with computers today". Lockhart got it right in his famous lament - the problem is that we face a system of self-sustaining bullshit that actually thinks it's teaching math. My guess is that Conrad Wolfram probably plans to conveniently also sell the accompanying software for thi…

Well stated. For further deep thinking and a wonderful read, I recommend the original, "A Mathematician's Lament" by Paul Lockhart (2009): http://www.maa.org/devlin/lockhartslament.pdf [PDF]

Re: Stop teaching calculating; Start teaching math

#36
post #19

This is sad. Really sad. My personal opinion is that Americans just dislike academic matters so much that they are incapable of forming a coherent solution for their children's schooling. Let me tell you some personal anecdotes. I moved to Minnesota during my High school senior year from Vietnam. It sucked: I couldn't hold on to conversations, and people couldn't understand my pronunciation; so I was bored and very l…

> You know what I do during my lunch time? Trying to re-prove Fermat's Last Theorem.

How many other students did you know who did the same? There are some people (you, in this instance) who like Math in the current form it is taught. But the sad truth is a large majority of the world's student population (that includes Asia) find Math a boring, dry subject that forces too many drills upon you for not much practical application later.

> The problem is no so much that they dump down math. The problem is that they alienate the students from math. When you do math, all of it, the result is made of your sweat.

Wolfram advocates using programming to drive the concepts better by making students write programs to solve the problem. You can't do that without really understanding the concepts behind it.

> I hope you see my point: there is no elevator to interest in math. Math lovers must have toiled and slaved over stupid calculation over and over, until a point that they could actually produce the trace of math working, just like the zone in programming or any other art. That trace, that focus, that absorption builds the love for math.

Again, that definitely has worked for some percentage of the population. But it in no way is a guarantee that there aren't ways to better it. The 'elevator' to interest in Math might just exist.

The point of the talk was that Math the way it is being taught only teaches students to do hand-calculation, but doesn't give enough importance to other crucial aspects (asking right question, modeling and math formulation). It also brings in Computers as a great tool to help students understand Maths better: by procedurizing learning and using programming to help students understand concepts better than just handsolving problems repeatedly.

> You know where self esteem is from? It's from holding a piece of paper on which a problem has been solved and solution has been neatly presented; it's from the overcoming of frustration and challenges that the problem presents.

It's also from running the program you wrote which solves a challenge well. That is an important idea that Wolfram presents in the talk (it is by no means new, but nothing much has come of it yet). How is understanding 'how' to solve a Mathematical problem and translating it into executable code less 'frustrating/challenging' than learning by rote a specific method to attack a specific pattern of mathematical problems and using that technique mindlessly to solve them?

I find that the comment fails to address those actual points in the talk, but instead raises rote learning and hand-calculation drills as something worth aspiring for, and something that separates the chaff from the grain. I disagree. There are many students out there who find Math (the way it is being taught now) boring and worthless, but would have loved the subject if it (the teaching style) appealed to their intelligence better.

(also, please don't overwork the students any bit more. its hard enough already for most)

Re: Stop teaching calculating; Start teaching math

#37
post #26
post #9

Of course, his main point is to advocate for using computers to teach and learn math; he's selling Mathematica/Wolfram Alpha. But this is dangerous and a little shallow. And here is why. Math is the language of science; just like a C -- or any other programming language -- is a language of computing; just like English is a language of humans. There are many ways to learn a language, but I think they all have somethin…

Err. This what he saying, you focus more on manipulating equations in the language of maths such as algebra, calculus, and less time on remembering what's the answer to 7 * 8.

Is this really a win? For most small problems or subproblems, a person who has solved similar problems many times before can solve it mentally much more quickly than by consulting a computer.

Re: Stop teaching calculating; Start teaching math

#38
post #19

This is sad. Really sad. My personal opinion is that Americans just dislike academic matters so much that they are incapable of forming a coherent solution for their children's schooling. Let me tell you some personal anecdotes. I moved to Minnesota during my High school senior year from Vietnam. It sucked: I couldn't hold on to conversations, and people couldn't understand my pronunciation; so I was bored and very l…

Back to problem of American math schooling. Here is my prescription: just make the damn students do it. Require them to work on math. Forget about the whole, um, personality and uniqueness and whatnots. You know where these things are from? The toil of work (for students, that's studying) builds personality, values, and one's importance and uniqueness. You know where self esteem is from? It's from holding a piece of paper on which a problem has been solved and solution has been neatly presented; it's from the overcoming of frustration and challenges that the problem presents. Artisans take pride and esteem in their works. Students take pride and esteem in their tests and homework (except when you tell them that the football players will get the praise, the money, and the sex, and only these 3 things matter). Stop worrying about overworking them. Actually, overwork them to the ground. Leave them no energy and time to experiment with drugs and sex and alcohol.

Um, no, this has nothing to do with hard work, and everything to do with the way mathematic is taught. I am a programmer and I would love to understand mathematics the way I understand programming. There got to be far more to mathematics than simply learning how to follow steps.

As a programmer, I write, debug, fix and improve code. With math, I don't understand why am I merely following steps when computers can do it at far higher reliability than I could.

Re: Stop teaching calculating; Start teaching math

#39
post #32
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently had the experience of helping a young algebra student with her homework. She is very bright and is in an accelerated math program that teaches algebra in the 7th grade. However, it was so disappointing to see the curriculum. I was in the same accelerated program 15 years ago and the curriculum hadn't changed a bit. It was still vague and unhelpful. They sent her home for the summer with a large packet of p…

> how one year a variable would mean one thing and the next > year it would mean something else I'm probably misunderstanding what you mean, but isn't that the purpose of a variable? In programming, a variable foo in one method which represents Widget objects is completely independent from a variable foo in another method which represents Gadget objects. In math, solving for X in one problem might be to find the miss…

I'm not disagreeing that variables are meant to be variable.

However, it's important to teach context behind variables before asking an 11 year old to solve them or else it becomes a point of confusion. They are asked to use rote memorization to complete the calculations but they don't seed their memory before asking.

Re: Stop teaching calculating; Start teaching math

#40
post #19

This is sad. Really sad. My personal opinion is that Americans just dislike academic matters so much that they are incapable of forming a coherent solution for their children's schooling. Let me tell you some personal anecdotes. I moved to Minnesota during my High school senior year from Vietnam. It sucked: I couldn't hold on to conversations, and people couldn't understand my pronunciation; so I was bored and very l…

Yikes, I completely disagree. There's nothing wrong with hard work, but I definitely think that doing oodles of calculations definitely has a quick point of diminishing returns. I was also raised in a pacific-rim Asian household. Growing up, I spent lots of time doing routine calculation. Looking back, I wonder if that time was really that well spent. In elementary school, I spent an entire summer doing nothing but p…

I agree with you, but in the context of American education, the parent is right. Whenever anyone talks about improving American education, unless they specifically say otherwise, they are talking about students who are struggling to learn. When they talk about relieving the students of the burden of calculation, they are not talking about the problem of kids who have mastered calculation problems being forced to do them over and over again ad nauseam. Nobody cares about those kids, because those kids get good grades and good test scores. What are the measurements that people talk about in education reform? The percentage of students with low scores. The percentage of students who drop out. The percentage of students who are not prepared for college. This is typical for discussion of American social issues; everything is problem-oriented and not success-oriented. Certain outcomes are labeled as failures, and reform is aimed at preventing them. Education reform is aimed at kids and schools who are "at risk" of producing undesirable outcomes. Kids who can do calculations accurately aren't even part of the conversation.

So, when anyone talks about relieving kids of the burden of calculation, they aren't talking about people such as yourself who have learned beyond the point of diminishing returns. They're talking about the kids who still struggle to do the calculations correctly. They want to give up and move on with the kids' education before the kids have learned. This is linked to a perennial fantasy in elementary math education: that intuition is valuable and easy, while computation is hard and unimportant. I think this fantasy is wrong on both counts. Intuition is acquired only through hard work and practice, and intuition is only valuable if you are competent to subject your intuition to scrutiny. Intuition and calculation have to be yoked together like a pair of oxen, each pulling the other along when it falters. But as long as teachers believe that intuition is easy, there will be people willing to exploit the fantasy by promising to deliver easy, intuitive learning experiences without the useless drudgery of calculation.

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