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Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

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491–500 of 635 posts

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whack. Let consumers and sellers decide what to do with their own data

This is a totally foreign idea to the EU. Offensive and crass, even. There's something I've learnt from some time in the EU. There is not an innovative, risk-taking, freedom-loving bone in the EU culture -- they exported all those folks to the US. Their homegrown risk takers and innovators inevitably leave because of their suffocating culture around innovation, entrepreneurship, and progress. This is one of the reaso…

or maybe they just don't think automated mass surveillance is a worthwhile innovation.

Like the atom bomb, you know - you shouldn't get to drop one in the middle of the city just because you invented it. Not even if it's very profitable.

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#492
post #241

> "This isn't just about a fine; the Commission forcing us to change our business model effectively imposes a multi-billion-dollar tariff on Meta while requiring us to offer an inferior service." Meta complaining about getting tariff'd is objectively hilarious.

No, like the rest of these power games it should be worrying. It's not about whether it's actually a tariff or not - it's not about objective truth. It's about getting the orange guy to do things that are beneficial for Mr Sugarhill's money pile. It might or might not work in this particular instance, but it should be very concerning that this sort of thing is the way to get money now.

Mr Sugarhill's ploy is presumably to get Mr Mango enraged about the tariffs so he tariffs them back 200%, and they back down to avoid the 200% tariffs.

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#493
post #241

> "This isn't just about a fine; the Commission forcing us to change our business model effectively imposes a multi-billion-dollar tariff on Meta while requiring us to offer an inferior service." Meta complaining about getting tariff'd is objectively hilarious.

> the Commission forcing us to change our business model This is total, utter, complete 100% grade A organic nonsense. I worked at FB (but the same is true of basically all action driven advertising systems). Only a tiny proportion of users ever click, but they are incredibly lucrative for online advertising platforms. The whole subscription was a really transparent attempt to get people to accept the tracking and it…

Ads work even if nobody clicks.

At least, old school ads. Sensible ads. Like Coca-Cola. I have no idea how these ridiculous online gaming things stay in business but I'm sure it's much stupider.

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#494
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GDPR does not purport to outlaw targeted advertising. It just purports to require that the target consent. In pretty much every other area of law in most of the world (including Europe) consent can be bought--the party requesting consent gives the consenter something in exchange for consent, and will not give that thing unless consent is given. But under the rulings from some regulators that doesn't work for GDPR. Co…

That's not entirely fair. The concept of duress exists and is always at odds with consent in a transactional setting. The issue is where to draw the boundary between "you freely chose to do business" and "you were coerced into accepting unfavorable terms". I'm inclined to think that "pay or be tracked" is usually the former. The issue was never that I shouldn't have to pay but rather that I wasn't given the choice in…

That would probably work if it wasn't already such an established business model. The grocery store hires a bouncer to not let me in unless he can take a picture of my ID? Fine... I'll go across the street.

But since it already is established that the Internet works this way, all grocery stores in town are already doing this. I might not want to but I still have to. Moreover, it's been firmly impressed upon everyone that they have to show ID to enter a grocery store, so if I created a new one that didn't, people would just continue going to their closest one anyway. To improve this situation, something more drastic than free competition is needed (if that could work, it already would have).

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The profit if any would be much less than $30bn. It doesn't cost that much to maintain and run the appstore, it is almost all profits.

You are trying to tell me that credit card processing fees are negligible, software engineers work for free, advertising doesn’t require overhead, etc… I guess that kind of thinking that everything is basically free is why alot of startups just fail so easily.

None of them are close to 30 billion!!!

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#496

US officials and businessmen keep on repeating the same thing: > The European Commission is attempting to handicap successful American businesses while allowing Chinese and European companies to operate under different standards. But this is wildly untrue. The EU isn't hand-picking individual organisations and fining them because they're American, they're fining them because they're in breach of existing legislation.…

> The same legislation applies to local companies.

It doesn't matter what applies, only what's enforced matters.

Laws being selectively enforced for an agenda is a tale as old as the existence of laws.

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#497
post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not Meta specifically, although Meta as a monopoly on being apple to infrige this rule. (A long time ago, in a capitalism far, far way, America was against monopolies and cartels. Those days will come back.) I’ve been asking for years here and nobody has made a solid argument to me how Facebook has a monopoly in anything or how a social networking monopoly even could exist. It’s a competitive market out there. Some…

> I’ve been asking for years here and nobody has made a solid argument to me how Facebook has a monopoly in anything or how a social networking monopoly even could exist. It’s a competitive market out there. Some of their competitors are on the DMA’s hit list too. This seems pretty convincing to me, given that Meta owns Facebook, Instagram and Whatsapp: [1] > Facebook leads the pack with 3.04 billion users, maintaini…

> This seems pretty convincing to me, given that Meta owns Facebook, Instagram and Whatsapp: [1]

>> Facebook leads the pack with 3.04 billion users, maintaining its position as the most extensive social networking site globally. > YouTube follows with 2.5 billion users, reinforcing its status as the premier platform for video sharing and consumption. > WhatsApp and Instagram are tied in the third position, each with 2 billion users. WhatsApp is renowned for its messaging services, while Instagram is a favorite for photo and video sharing. > TikTok, with 1.5 billion users, rounds out the top five, showcasing its rapid rise as a leading platform for short-form video content.

This tells only part of the story, believe it or not. You know the old phrase, lies, damned lies, and statistics? This is why statistics is on the list: statistics are a very easy way to mislead and even straight up lie to people.

So let’s start with your conception of the DMA: the DMA is not an anti-monopoly law. It is addendum to the EU’s competition policy, which defines a new entity type called a gatekeeper. Similarly, with the DSA (“Digital Services Act”) they defined another entity type: very large online platforms or VLOPs.

The reason why they were put in the position in the first place of writing new laws defining new entity types is because no matter how they tried to slice it, not even the EU could justifiably punish their targets, large mostly American tech giants, under anti-monopoly law, not even if they were to really stretch it by legally redefining what a monopoly even is.

Do you want to know what a monopoly looks like? It looks like AT&T in the 90s with long distance phone calls, where the only way to talk to someone across a long distance and hear their voice was to go through AT&T’s telephone lines that had long ago been laid coast-to-coast across the USA. It looks like railroads colluding because they’re all laying tracks across Kansas and they don’t want to do that anymore. That’s a monopoly.

Apple, Meta, et al. have not been charged as monopolies under the DMA or DSA. They have been defined, literally put on a list by the EC under a law it had written itself with specific targets in mind, as Gatekeepers and/or VLOPs and simply being on that list is enough to give the EC extra special authority over them, again, under the law it has written with them in mind.

So let’s go back to social networks and discuss whether Facebook is a monopoly. I’m going to assert no and here is why: Facebook does not control the free flow of information across society, provide a chokehold for communication, is not essential for communication, and is not essential in its form or function. The Blue App itself is actually a very old type of social network grounded in the early to mid-aughts with sites like MySpace and 1up.com as its peers. Some of the kids today that never grew up with that, but really only heard about it have found their home in this retro social network called SpaceHey, but you don’t really see more Facebook’s because nobody really wants that. There’s already Facebook.

What about Facebook’s suite? The Blue App, Instagram, and WhatsApp. Again, all very large social networks in their own right. There’s also Threads tied into Instagram. They only seem dominant if you ignore an incredibly important piece of information: people don’t use just one social network. They use several, and for different purposes and niches. Twitter/X, Reddit, WeChat, LINE, KakaoTalk, Blue Sky, WhatsApp, VSCO, Instagram, Snapchat, Discord, Mixi, iMessage, Badoo, Mastodon, TikTok & Douyin, Whisper, Yik Yak, VK, Xiaohongshu, Letterboxd, Truth Social and Bumble are all playing in the same space. I would even throw Hacker News in the mix. What differentiates them are things like niche, geography, audience or interest focus, and medium but there are only so many hours in the day and Facebook is competing against all of that, and Netflix and YouTube, and the time you spend IRL just chatting with your friends at the pub or whatever.

People are on Facebook at this point largely because they want to be, and the fact that they have 3 billion users or whatever is fucking irrelevant to a competition authority because there’s no country or bloc on Earth with that population. The United States Department of Justice is chiefly concerned with competition law inside its own borders, and the same for the relevant EU authorities, and the same for each other country on Earth.

> In this case, is it still "neutral" once your start talking about, say, self defense ? death penalty ? assisted suicide ? war times

Murder has a definition, and it’s not just a synonym for the killing of someone. It’s the unlawful and intentional act of killing someone without justification nor a valid excuse. Different legal systems may vary in the specifics, but most do tend to distinguish murder from other forms of killing. Either way, the applicability of the charge of murder, or the charge of being a monopoly to bring this discussion back a bit from the morbid, is founded in the rule of law.

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#498
post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Spotify most certainly does have strong network effects (your friends are all on it, the party you go to with collaborative playlists uses it, etc), data driven-advantages (Spotify's personalized recommendations are built on vast historical playing data), lock-in effects (your playlist/history and all your friends' playlists are there), dependence of businesses users (Spotify is the go-to platform for music lab…

I think we might have a fundamental disagreement that we'll have to agree to disagree on. From a brief search, Facebook and Google are responsible for ~60-80% or more of digital advertising spend. This is because of their data-driven advantages that come from the multisidedness of their services, forcing a dependence of business users. While Spotify does have social features, I don't really know anyone who joined Spo…

> I don't really know anyone who joined Spotify because that's "where their friends were." The social features consist primarily of playlists (which can be viewed without an account)

Former Apple Music user here. I switched because of Spotify’s collaborative playlists. Technically, I could have used a sync solution to sync changes between platforms. In reality, it was just cheaper all around to switch to Spotify instead, and be on the same platform as my partner and friends. Being able to open Spotify links being sent to me without having to run it though some translation shortcut was wonderful.

Apple deleting all my playlists immediately after my subs lapsed was the icing on the cake to never return.

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#499
post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not Meta specifically, although Meta as a monopoly on being apple to infrige this rule. (A long time ago, in a capitalism far, far way, America was against monopolies and cartels. Those days will come back.) > The DMA is not neutral laws on neutral principles What do you mean "neutral law on neutral principles" ? Does that exist ? I can agree on some version of "not a neutral law" in that it is "objectively" targeted…

> Not Meta specifically, although Meta as a monopoly on being apple to infrige this rule. (A long time ago, in a capitalism far, far way, America was against monopolies and cartels. Those days will come back.) I’ve been asking for years here and nobody has made a solid argument to me how Facebook has a monopoly in anything or how a social networking monopoly even could exist. It’s a competitive market out there. Some…

Antitrust doesn't mean monopoly, but monopoly is a part of antitrust. Monopoly also doesn't mean you're the only one, but you're the one capable of fixing prices, or doing something else anti competitive.

It's a complex thing in practice, don't take the linguistic definition of the word itself as the sole interpretation of the law.

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#500
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the most easily agreeable part of what the EU has been after It's also probably the most dangerous for Apple. It creates a cash incentive to push people outside of Apple's walled garden and show them what's outside. I really really hope Apple gets its act together, they are the greatest "the user experience comes first" company and they actually have great hard tech but they show signs of rent seeking behavior which…

"Show signs of rent seeking behaviour" seems like an extremely generous position. Forbidding your customers from even mentioning The Outside is full-on rent seeking behaviour, since its inception.

To steel man the policy, one thing it helps avoid is the free rider problem. Apples store terms are than free apps don’t pay a commission to Apple. But someone has to pay for the costs of developing the SDKs and the platform. We no longer live in an age where Apple or Microsoft gets away with charging for multi thousand dollar per year per seat developer license for their platforms, but that doesn’t mean those platforms don’t cost money to develop and maintain. So the idea is, if you make money on the platform, so does Apple. But free apps + in app downloads is a giant loophole in that plan. Sure we all think of Netflix or Kindle apps when we think of this, but without a policy that charges for IAP and discourages or outright forbids steering off the platform, we would see a new category of “freemium” apps where the app is “free” on the App Store, but is effectively just an empty downloader shell that you then have to buy the “real” app through. Unscrupulous devs steer you to their own outside store or put some ridiculous inside the App Store price (think 300x+ markup) with a link to the outside store with the cheaper price and all those customers are transacting, and Apple gets no money for funding their platform.

And yes I know we can all scoff and say “oh poor multi-billion dollar Apple can’t get paid but getting paid is exactly how Apple is a multibillion dollar company. So if they don’t get it from IAP and app sales fees then they’re going to extract it either from hardware prices, or for charging those per seat per year dev licenses again.

Personally I think Apple is big enough now and the App Store is popular enough now they can revisit this but somehow they are going to want to solve the free rider problem, and whatever they pick, people won’t be happy (see also core technology fee)

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