Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think most of the time when we tell ourselves this, it's cope. Software is automation. "Computers" used to be people! Literally, people.
> "Computers" used to be people! Literally, people. Not always. Recruitment budgets have limits, so it's a fixed number of employees either providing services to a larger number of customers thanks to software, or serving fewer customers or do so less often without the software.
The hidden cost of AI coding
81–90 of 475 posts
Re: The hidden cost of AI coding
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
> as long as there's a simultaneous effort to help (especially those who are poor) transition to a new form of working. Somehow everyone who says this misses that never in the history of the United States (and most other countries tbh) has this been true. We just consign people to the streets in industrial quantity. More underserved to act as the lubricant for capitalism.
But... My local library has a job searching program? I have a friend who's learning masonry at a government sponsored training program? It seems the issue is not that resources don't exist, but that these people don't have the time to use them. So it's unfair to say they don't exist. Rather, it seems they're structured in an unhelpful way for those who are working double jobs, etc. I see capitalism invoked as a "boog…
> So it's unfair to say they don't exist. Rather, it seems they're structured in an unhelpful way for those who are working double jobs, etc.
I'll be sure to alert the next person I encounter working UberEats for slave wages that the resources exist that they cannot use. I'm sure this difference will impact their lives greatly.
Edit: My point isn't that UberEats drivers make slave wages (though they do): My point is that from the POV of said people and others who need the aforementioned resources, whether they don't exist or exist and are unusable is fucking irrelevant.
Re: The hidden cost of AI coding
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm unable and unwilling to shadowbox with what you think I'm actually experiencing.
That's fine; read it as me speaking to the whole thread, not challenging you directly. Technology drives economic productivity; increasing economic productivity generally implies worker displacement. That workers come out ahead in the long run (they have in the past; it's obviously not a guarantee) is besides my point. Software is automating software development away, the same way it automated a huge percentage of (s…
> That workers come out ahead in the long run (they have in the past...)
Would you mind naming a few instance of the workers coming out ahead?
Re: The hidden cost of AI coding
#84So long as your experience and skill allows you to produce work of higher quality than average for your industry, then you will always have a job which is to review that average quality work, and surgically correct it when it is wrong.
This has always been true in every craft, and it remains true for programmers in a post LLL world.
Most training data is open source code written by novice to average programmers publishing their first attempts at things and thus LLMS are heavily biased to replicate the naive, slow, insecure code largely uninformed by experience.
Honestly to most programmers early in their career right now, I would suggest spending more time reviewing code, and bugfixes, than writing code. Review is the skillset the industry needs most now.
But you will need to be above average as a software reviewer to be employable. Go out into FOSSland and find a bunch of CVEs, or contribute perf/stability/compat fixes, proving you review and improve things better than existing automated tools.
Trust me, there are bugs -everywhere- if you know how to look for them and proving you can find them is the resume you need now.
The days of anyone that can rub two HTML tags together having a high paying job are over.
Re: The hidden cost of AI coding
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's fine; read it as me speaking to the whole thread, not challenging you directly. Technology drives economic productivity; increasing economic productivity generally implies worker displacement. That workers come out ahead in the long run (they have in the past; it's obviously not a guarantee) is besides my point. Software is automating software development away, the same way it automated a huge percentage of (s…
> That workers come out ahead in the long run (they have in the past...) Would you mind naming a few instance of the workers coming out ahead?
Sure. Compare the quality of life of the Computers to that of any stably employed person today who owns a computer.
Re: The hidden cost of AI coding
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
But... My local library has a job searching program? I have a friend who's learning masonry at a government sponsored training program? It seems the issue is not that resources don't exist, but that these people don't have the time to use them. So it's unfair to say they don't exist. Rather, it seems they're structured in an unhelpful way for those who are working double jobs, etc. I see capitalism invoked as a "boog…
> So it's unfair to say they don't exist. Rather, it seems they're structured in an unhelpful way for those who are working double jobs, etc. I'll be sure to alert the next person I encounter working UberEats for slave wages that the resources exist that they cannot use. I'm sure this difference will impact their lives greatly. Edit: My point isn't that UberEats drivers make slave wages (though they do): My point is…
At some point, you've stopped participating in good faith with the thread and are instead trying to push it towards some other topic; in your case, apparently, a moral challenge against Uber. I think we get it; can you stop supplying superficial rebuttals to every point made with "but UberEats employs [contracts] wave slaves"?
Re: The hidden cost of AI coding
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
But... My local library has a job searching program? I have a friend who's learning masonry at a government sponsored training program? It seems the issue is not that resources don't exist, but that these people don't have the time to use them. So it's unfair to say they don't exist. Rather, it seems they're structured in an unhelpful way for those who are working double jobs, etc. I see capitalism invoked as a "boog…
> So it's unfair to say they don't exist. Rather, it seems they're structured in an unhelpful way for those who are working double jobs, etc. I'll be sure to alert the next person I encounter working UberEats for slave wages that the resources exist that they cannot use. I'm sure this difference will impact their lives greatly. Edit: My point isn't that UberEats drivers make slave wages (though they do): My point is…
Slave wages? Like the wages for a factory worker in 1918[1]? $1300 after adjusting for inflation. And that was gruelling work from dawn to dusk, being locked into a building, and nickel and dimed by factory managers. (See the triangle shirtwaist factory). The average Uber wage is $20/hour[2]. Say they use 2 gallons of gas (60 mph at 30 mpg) at $5/gallon. That comes out to $10/hour, which is not great, but they're not being locked into factories and working from dawn to dusk and being fired when sick. Can you not see that this is progress? It's not great, we have a lot of progress to make, but it sure beats starving to death in a potato famine.
[1] https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015022383221&se...
[2] https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Uber/salaries/Driver (select United States as location)
Re: The hidden cost of AI coding
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
But... My local library has a job searching program? I have a friend who's learning masonry at a government sponsored training program? It seems the issue is not that resources don't exist, but that these people don't have the time to use them. So it's unfair to say they don't exist. Rather, it seems they're structured in an unhelpful way for those who are working double jobs, etc. I see capitalism invoked as a "boog…
> So it's unfair to say they don't exist. Rather, it seems they're structured in an unhelpful way for those who are working double jobs, etc. I'll be sure to alert the next person I encounter working UberEats for slave wages that the resources exist that they cannot use. I'm sure this difference will impact their lives greatly. Edit: My point isn't that UberEats drivers make slave wages (though they do): My point is…
Replying to your edit: it is relevant, because it means people are trying but it isn't working. When people aren't trying, you have to get people to start trying. When people are trying but it isn't working, you have to help change the approach. Doubling down on a failing policy (e.g. we just need to create more resources) is failing to learn from the past.
Re: The hidden cost of AI coding
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
> "Computers" used to be people! Literally, people. Not always. Recruitment budgets have limits, so it's a fixed number of employees either providing services to a larger number of customers thanks to software, or serving fewer customers or do so less often without the software.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_(occupation)
Thank you for the link, the reference you're making slipped past me. That said, I think my point still holds: software doesn't always have to displace workers, it can also help current employees scale their efforts when bringing on more people isn't possible.
Re: The hidden cost of AI coding
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
> That workers come out ahead in the long run (they have in the past...) Would you mind naming a few instance of the workers coming out ahead?
Sure. Compare the quality of life of the Computers to that of any stably employed person today who owns a computer.
Got it, you're talking about workers getting ahead as a category -- no objections to that.
I doubt the displaced computers managed to find a better job on average. Probably even their kids were disadvantaged since the parents had fewer options to support their education.
So, who knows if this specific group of people and their descendants ever fully recovered let alone got ahead.