Currently, I am working on a file management tool that uses tags fairly heavily. Obviously I think tags can be useful. But the claim that folders can or should be eliminated is seriously misguided. * Tags aren't enough once your file number exceeds a certain amount. * File path provides a unique human-readable and human-understand identifier for everyone's file. A system where pieces of data don't have unique identif…
Why Folders are holding back hassle-free File Management & Tags are the Future.
51–60 of 61 posts
Re: Why Folders are holding back hassle-free File Management & Tags are the Future.
#52Has Microsoft done away with folders in their upcoming OS? Just curious. What about the file systems of other OS's out there? It is indeed true that folders are the least efficient aspect of operating systems but it is strange that we're still holding on to them.
This would be a lot of work, since all existing software looks for users' files in folders, looks for its own internal configuration files in folders, loads DLLs from paths which are lists of folders, creates folders to put itself into when it's installed, calls APIs to open files with hierarchical names, uses current and temporary directories, etc., etc. This is true for every operating system that I can think of, not just Windows.
Re: Why Folders are holding back hassle-free File Management & Tags are the Future.
#53The obvious benefit to using tagging is that tags can be anything. The obvious detriment to using tagging is that tags can be anything. Take, for example, a contact in an address book. Did I tag "contact", "friend", "acquaintance", "people I know", or something else? How do I know what to search for? Obviously a contrived example but it easily extends for any type of document; put simply, a hierarchy is much easier t…
But I agree with you that a system can't discard the file hierarchy without discarding important qualities many people need.
Re: Why Folders are holding back hassle-free File Management & Tags are the Future.
#54The obvious benefit to using tagging is that tags can be anything. The obvious detriment to using tagging is that tags can be anything. Take, for example, a contact in an address book. Did I tag "contact", "friend", "acquaintance", "people I know", or something else? How do I know what to search for? Obviously a contrived example but it easily extends for any type of document; put simply, a hierarchy is much easier t…
One way to deal with ambiguous tags is to use aliases and related-to indicators. But I agree with you that a system can't discard the file hierarchy without discarding important qualities many people need.
Now, were we to talk about some standard of tagging that has link relationships baked in, we might be talking. But then we sacrifice customization.
Re: Why Folders are holding back hassle-free File Management & Tags are the Future.
#55I tried tagging my files for a while. I quit. Part of it was that tagging is done via an add-on, of course, and it added an additional step to creating a file. But I also feel like there are a lot of problems that need to be solved about streamlining the process of tagging files, dealing with typos, and auto-creating maps of the tag structure. And even if we did move to a wholly tag-based userland, your non-technical…
So what? Who on earth is troubled by this? Weak attempt to create a problem where none exists.
"Another glitch is the possibility to store folders in folders which is not possible in real live."
Also wrong. It's quite possible to store folders in folders in real life. And you can put folders in boxes, which are nothing but a different-shaped folder. Again, this is a lame attempt to shore up a weak argument with sham "problems."
Re: Why Folders are holding back hassle-free File Management & Tags are the Future.
#56Currently, I am working on a file management tool that uses tags fairly heavily. Obviously I think tags can be useful. But the claim that folders can or should be eliminated is seriously misguided. * Tags aren't enough once your file number exceeds a certain amount. * File path provides a unique human-readable and human-understand identifier for everyone's file. A system where pieces of data don't have unique identif…
Reminds me of trying to organize/tag my mp3 library. Those fringe cases of imperfect tagging get so cumbersome to manage. Also, with folders, it's so easy to just dump x number of files into a folder and have it organized. Batch tag editing just isn't as intuitive. Now I have an Android and use that as my mp3 player, and Poweramp has a "Folders" view that I almost exclusively use.
Re: Why Folders are holding back hassle-free File Management & Tags are the Future.
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
I completely disagree with this based on my experiencing working with several companies who moved to Google Apps. Some of these companies are small businesses (10-25 employees), but some are large organizations with hundreds of employees and retail locations around the country. The problem with tags as pseudo-folders is that it breaks a core promise of "folders". Folders are a metaphor, and when you use a metaphor li…
It's not about whether users aren't smart enough for tags. It's whether tags work the way users want them to. Tags are for organization. People like to organize things in terms of visual hierarchies and landmarks. Raw tagging systems aren't popular, because most people don't memorize precise strings. [1] They remember roughly what directories look like and 'know where things are' based on whether they believe they ca…
I do like that idea though. Users often treat folders like tags. In a manner of speaking folders are tags, in that they label the contents. They just happen to be organized in a hierarchy. The tags get more specific as you dig deeper in to the tree.
I'll have a go at reasoning by anecdote. For some reason, the default behavior of the Finder search field searches your entire computer as you type. This always struck me as odd, because it is 180 degrees from what I wanted. I would frequently:
* Navigate to a relatively shallow point in a folder hierarchy
* Start searching from there, expecting that my search would be constrained to this location
I do this because I know (generally) where something might be, but I can't recall exactly where.
I ended up reconfiguring Finder to behave like this.
If you split the folder path by separator, you often get a set of tags. So, by drilling down in to a folder heirarchy, you're "scoping" your search by tags, getting more detailed as you go.
I think hierarchy may be the missing piece of the tagging puzzle. A hierarchy would provide guidance (and a visual component). It says, "start broad, then get specific". Imagine a workflow where you would navigate to a specific point in the tag tree, then create a document. Doing so would associate the document with the current tag set without any additional work. If needed, the user could add additional tags, drilling down as they go.
My most important point about "folders" is just that we should avoid referring to these new systems as such. If we want to make progress, we need to unhinge users' thoughts from old concepts.
Re: Why Folders are holding back hassle-free File Management & Tags are the Future.
#58The real problem, I think, is that folders reflect reality. Tags do not. Most people are think of a file as belonging in one specific category. So you tag it as such. Very few people would bother trying to remember multiple tags to apply to their files. The process of organization is too cumbersome, so you stop doing it.
So what do you get if you only apply a single tag to a file? You get a flat list of folders. If the tags have a hierarchy, you get exactly the same thing as using folders. So why bother with tags?
With my Email I don't even use folders. In that case, I don't bother organizing anything. Search works just fine for me. In fact, search works just fine for most of my files these days.
Re: Why Folders are holding back hassle-free File Management & Tags are the Future.
#59Yet another company promoting a file management app to fix a problem that does not exist. It's not even particularly unique. I've seen at least dozen such solutions. Even tried a couple of them (Anyone remember Brain - an associative array file management platform?). I always gave them up. The real problem, I think, is that folders reflect reality. Tags do not. Most people are think of a file as belonging in one spec…
Re: Why Folders are holding back hassle-free File Management & Tags are the Future.
#60Yet another company promoting a file management app to fix a problem that does not exist. It's not even particularly unique. I've seen at least dozen such solutions. Even tried a couple of them (Anyone remember Brain - an associative array file management platform?). I always gave them up. The real problem, I think, is that folders reflect reality. Tags do not. Most people are think of a file as belonging in one spec…
"folders reflect reality" +1
It's true. The argument that tags do everything that albums do and more is false. Perhaps for an engineer but the brain thinks in terms of albums (or folders for files). Nature or nurture, it doesn't matter. This is not a battle you win with engineering.