Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

ca.finance.yahoo.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

431–440 of 635 posts

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#431

Post by kube-system »

freedomben wrote: post #429
rzwitserloot wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Technically, the first amendment applies only to state actors, not private entities. That's probably not what the person you're responding to is talking about. Americans have this unfortunate tendency to harp on and on about 'free speech' in contexts where the first amendment obviously does not apply, or, even more intriguingly/ironically, where the first amendment pretty clearly states the exact opposite. For exam…

> I don't understand what you're on about. Likewise, I think we have a miscommunication here because I agree with everything you wrote. I'm not making a legal argument about free speech at all. I agree with your analysis on the legality there. Now that said, I do think the Biden admin crossed the line of legality with their collaboration (and a little implied threatening) Twitter and Facebook, and their whole establi…

> To go back to the Lab Leak Theory example when Youtube was taking down any videos that even mentioned it (even if the mentioner was a well-respected Evolutionary Biologist) wasn't illegal, but it was a total abandonment of free speech principles.

Not really, this is a case where two cooperating parties, who both have speech rights, have a dispute about which speech they collectively want to espouse.

Unless you're saying that people should lose their speech rights when they form a business?

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#432

Post by guappa »

fidotron wrote: post #139
guappa wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean microsoft paid off the CEO of nokia to sink it.

Nokia was worthless by that point. Even had they run with a wild pivot to Android it would have required the strategic vision to also build an Android app store, which would have upset the various European telcos that made a few extra euros that way.

> Nokia was worthless by that point.

Not according to the value of their stocks.

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#433

Post by Aloisius »

radlad wrote: post #422
Aloisius wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of that is used to determine who is a gatekeeper. The assessment for whether Chrome qualified as a gatekeeper is less than 3 pages long. All they care about is whether they qualify as a platform and that they are over the threshold for active non-business users, active business users, revenue in the EU for enough time. At no point did they concern themselves with potential anti-competitive practices in making th…

I think the document you really want to look at is this one, which is the actual regulation the DMA is operating under: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2022/1925/oj/eng That regulation is very much concerned with anti-competitive practices. What we're seeing now is the application (or execution) of those regulations. When I look at Regulation (EU) 2022/1925, it's pretty clear to me that Spotify does not have, for e…

What?

Spotify most certainly does have strong network effects (your friends are all on it, the party you go to with collaborative playlists uses it, etc), data driven-advantages (Spotify's personalized recommendations are built on vast historical playing data), lock-in effects (your playlist/history and all your friends' playlists are there), dependence of businesses users (Spotify is the go-to platform for music labels for promotion and only way to reach certain customers) and end users (because of network and lock-in effects).

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#434

Post by withinboredom »

mrangle wrote: post #402
madeofpalk wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it should! Then Apple's App Store and IAP could compete on its own merits, rather than restricting competition from existing at all.

Apple does compete on its own merits. Its merits are that it built and controls the operating system and hardware that people choose to buy. If other companies have an issue, then they can build their own software, their own hardware, and compete.

Companies don’t make laws (unless you live somewhere like the US); people do. If the people say “stop fucking around and rent-seeking” then companies should have to do that. It’s pretty simple, really. Just because you build your own hardware and software doesn’t give you the right to do whatever you want.

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#435

Post by dmitrygr »

Ukv wrote: post #326
dmitrygr wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally, as a society, we hold that a contract cannot be modified without both parties’ agreement. When you bought that phone, it was with the completely clear, overt, and in no way uncertain understanding that it does specifically X Y Z, and does not do A B C. Now, without additional payment to the counterparty, you’re demanding your phone do A B C. What am I missing? According to accepted understandings of contra…

There's a range of anti-competitive behavior which can subvert that ideal, and as such there's regulation aimed to prevent it. Apple used to forbid apps from telling users about Apple's 30% cut or cheaper places to buy the app, for instance, hindering users from making an informed choice. Many of the policies in question are intentionally not publicized to end-users, often requiring first paying to be part of the dev…

  > intentionally not publicized to end-users
Apple allows no-questions-asked full-refund returns for two weeks.

   > requiring first paying to be part of the developer program
They are all available right here, online, without any purchase requirement: https://developer.apple.com/support/terms/

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#436

Post by Aloisius »

blitzar wrote: post #142
mapcars wrote: post #117

> while Meta drew a penalty of €200 million for its "pay or consent" advertising model, which requires that European Union users pay to access ad-free versions of Facebook and Instagram Wait, isn't pretty much all web content is like this nowadays? You have to buy youtube premium to avoid ads, how is it different?

Pay or have your information harvested and sold. Its extortion.

Who does Facebook sell data to?

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#437

Post by [deleted] »

Aloisius wrote: post #433
radlad wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the document you really want to look at is this one, which is the actual regulation the DMA is operating under: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2022/1925/oj/eng That regulation is very much concerned with anti-competitive practices. What we're seeing now is the application (or execution) of those regulations. When I look at Regulation (EU) 2022/1925, it's pretty clear to me that Spotify does not have, for e…

What? Spotify most certainly does have strong network effects (your friends are all on it, the party you go to with collaborative playlists uses it, etc), data driven-advantages (Spotify's personalized recommendations are built on vast historical playing data), lock-in effects (your playlist/history and all your friends' playlists are there), dependence of businesses users (Spotify is the go-to platform for music lab…

[deleted]

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#438

Post by _Algernon_ »

xvector wrote: post #363
stavros wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that's how we like it, and that's the end of it. The people of the EU have said that these are the rules for doing business there, and saying "I should be able to murder people in my own house, if you don't want to be murdered, just don't come here, there's no need for anti-murdering laws" is rather irrelevant.

Conversely, you can justify any authoritarian unjust law because "that's how we like it." "Deporting brown people without due process? That's how we like it, who are you to complain? You're free to not work with the US, but we know you will!" Obviously a nuanced and meaningful conversation goes much deeper than "that's how we like it." Why is it such an infringement on user rights to not be allowed to use a website i…

Funny choice of example considering that it is the US that is currently deporting people without due process.

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#439

Post by radlad »

Aloisius wrote: post #433
radlad wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the document you really want to look at is this one, which is the actual regulation the DMA is operating under: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2022/1925/oj/eng That regulation is very much concerned with anti-competitive practices. What we're seeing now is the application (or execution) of those regulations. When I look at Regulation (EU) 2022/1925, it's pretty clear to me that Spotify does not have, for e…

What? Spotify most certainly does have strong network effects (your friends are all on it, the party you go to with collaborative playlists uses it, etc), data driven-advantages (Spotify's personalized recommendations are built on vast historical playing data), lock-in effects (your playlist/history and all your friends' playlists are there), dependence of businesses users (Spotify is the go-to platform for music lab…

I think we might have a fundamental disagreement that we'll have to agree to disagree on.

From a brief search, Facebook and Google are responsible for ~60-80% or more of digital advertising spend. This is because of their data-driven advantages that come from the multisidedness of their services, forcing a dependence of business users.

While Spotify does have social features, I don't really know anyone who joined Spotify because that's "where their friends were." The social features consist primarily of playlists (which can be viewed without an account) and a feed showing what friends are listening to, if you connect to Facebook - which many don't. Additionally, Spotify has very open APIs that make it easy to move a playlist to another service: https://developer.spotify.com/documentation/web-api/referenc...

Facebook requires an account to access Marketplace, even to view it (lock-in effects), and many communities and neighborhoods have made Facebook the sole source of online discussion / information sharing (strong network effects.) Eschewing Facebook means missing information you can't get any other way. And it's literally impossible to avoid Google online.

Simply having a product and customers ("your friends are all on it, the party you go to with collaborative playlists uses") or an audience ("Spotify's personalized recommendations are built on vast historical playing data") is not the same as being a gatekeeper.

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#440

Post by squigz »

xandrius wrote: post #352
samdung wrote: post #319

Breach. Get sued. Pay Fine. Rinse. Repeat. At this point it looks like governments want the money and companies are gleefully willing to pay.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I get it that millions isn't much but it's something, and at least it sends a signal.

Frankly, the whole "it's pointless, so this is stupid" response to some things is more tiring to me than anything. What exactly is the end-game for these people? All or nothing? That is just delusional. It is simply not how progress is made. So let's be appreciative of what little is done, and push for more?

Not to mention the amount of people in here just focusing on the fine - by the way, I don't know how people can square the belief that these companies are endlessly greedy and will do anything for more money, with the belief that half a billion euros lost profit will just sit well with them - while completely ignoring the bit where these companies either comply or face even more fines.

Post reply on HN