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Stop teaching calculating; Start teaching math

computerbasedmath.org

11–20 of 80 posts

Re: Stop teaching calculating; Start teaching math

#11
post #8
post #3

Enjoyed skimming your article. If only more geeks actually wanted to teach kids... unfortunately most of us will only be able to do that once we've retired!

If I went back into education for 2 more years, piled more student debt on top of myself, not to mention living like a student again, PLUS having to have a part-time job while studying (while the loan is bigger for a PGCE, the costs of living are much much higher), and then got a job as a teacher, worked my ass off for 10 years, I would, if I was lucky, be earning the same salary I am today, a couple of years after l…

This cannot be upvoted hard enough. Education would reform itself overnight if teachers were hired from the top third of high school classes, not the bottom two thirds, and paid salaries that started ~$70k and reached ~$100k in five years if they were good.

Students struggle because you have to be a saint or an idiot to teach under the conditions currently imposed. We don't have nearly enough of the former, and way too many of the latter.

I have a really hard time imagining that brain-dead curriculum boards and mediocre administrators would sustain their death grip on a profession suddenly flooded with really sharp, well paid, professionals.

Re: Stop teaching calculating; Start teaching math

#12
I remember reading an article about almost the same topic by Felleisen, maybe Flatt, maybe Culpepper and some others from the PLT group, it was about using DrRacket to teach maths, there was an example involving the take-off of a rocket iirc. Is anyone able to find it? I don't remember the title nor where it was published.

Re: Stop teaching calculating; Start teaching math

#13
post #7

I think he argues from the wrong point. Yes, we need to teach math, not calculating. No, the argument is not "because we can do calculating with computers today". Lockhart got it right in his famous lament - the problem is that we face a system of self-sustaining bullshit that actually thinks it's teaching math. My guess is that Conrad Wolfram probably plans to conveniently also sell the accompanying software for thi…

I don't see why the software used is particularly important. The point should be the mathematics, rather than specific tools. I don't know how hard it is to transition from Wolfram Alpha, to, say, Matlab, but I don't think it's difficult.

Re: Stop teaching calculating; Start teaching math

#14
post #6

It's sad how many people think that math is arithmetic, and that if we let kids use computers or calculators then they're not "doing math". Not just the general public but PTA leaders, school board members, and school administrators.

I live in a relatively wealthy school district in Ohio where the schools generally are well-regarded. Last year, I went to the schools "parents math night". I had expected to be exasperated by, you know, those idiots who will be teaching my children (my older son is entering first grade this fall). However, I ended up impressed with the teachers and disappointed by the parents in attendance. The school had chosen the "Connected Math" curricula (connectedmath.msu.edu) for its middle school math program, and some parents were outraged that Little Johnny wasn't learning long division (or whatever). Their arguments could be summed up as, "Well, that's not the way we learned it." I angered the other parents by playing a bit dumb and asking for a short description of the curriculum. Then, I stated loudly that it "sounded delightful." The teachers barely contain their smiles. I ordered a couple of the books in used form from Amazon to see for myself, and I think I would have found the exercises fun as a middle schooler. I really wanted to ask the parents doing the complaining, "Don't you love your children? You pay more for a house just because it's in this school district, and then you lobby to dumb-down the math curriculum?"

Re: Stop teaching calculating; Start teaching math

#15
post #11
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I went back into education for 2 more years, piled more student debt on top of myself, not to mention living like a student again, PLUS having to have a part-time job while studying (while the loan is bigger for a PGCE, the costs of living are much much higher), and then got a job as a teacher, worked my ass off for 10 years, I would, if I was lucky, be earning the same salary I am today, a couple of years after l…

This cannot be upvoted hard enough. Education would reform itself overnight if teachers were hired from the top third of high school classes, not the bottom two thirds, and paid salaries that started ~$70k and reached ~$100k in five years if they were good. Students struggle because you have to be a saint or an idiot to teach under the conditions currently imposed. We don't have nearly enough of the former, and way t…

Imagine the change in classroom atmosphere if teachers had the same social credibility as professors did (or more aptly, if high school teachers had the same respect and admiration from students as kindergarten teachers)

Re: Stop teaching calculating; Start teaching math

#16
post #9

Of course, his main point is to advocate for using computers to teach and learn math; he's selling Mathematica/Wolfram Alpha. But this is dangerous and a little shallow. And here is why. Math is the language of science; just like a C -- or any other programming language -- is a language of computing; just like English is a language of humans. There are many ways to learn a language, but I think they all have somethin…

I do not disagree with you, but this is not answering his arguments.

Math is the language of science[...]. There are many ways to learn a language, but I think they all have something in common. You have to spend a lot of time learning, reading and writing. The writing is quite important. You have to write the language to be good at it.

He's not arguing that scientists should drop writing math altogether (although you have to admit that they are spending huge amount of efforts making the computers do the calculation for them). He's addressing the more general issue of "teaching math in elementary schools". Why do we do it today? not everyone is going to be a scientist!

The thing about math is that currently to write as it is supposed to look like can only be done most conveniently on paper. Writing a math formula in Mathematica or Wolfram alpha requires a latex-like mini language[...].

Yeah writing math formulas on a computer is a pain. But:

- you and I come from a generation of pen and paper math solving. The idea of markup annotation of your text is still very young, but is it so far fetched to imagine that in few generations, all text will be filled with metadata and tags? LaTeX is a pain because of our current primitive keyboards and screens.

- more people should work towards improving this. Wolfram Alpha is doing good things, they're not the only ones working on this either, but we still need to bring more attention to the issue.

Also, who cares if he sells WA. Let's talk about his idea, not his persona.

Re: Stop teaching calculating; Start teaching math

#17
In high school physics about 22 years ago, we did an experiment to calculate the acceleration due to gravity by repeatedly dropping a weight with a ticker tape attached to it that fed through a hole punch tool and measuring the spacing of the holes in the tape over time. As part of the analysis and write-up, we had to calculate the standard deviation across our sample runs. That seemed really tedious to me, so I wrote a program in BASIC that took a data file, ran the calculations and saved the results. I recall a certain to-do as the school deliberated over whether this was an acceptable way to complete the assignment, and I was asked to include the source code for my program so the teacher could determine that I understood the concept well enough to program it.

Re: Stop teaching calculating; Start teaching math

#18
post #6

It's sad how many people think that math is arithmetic, and that if we let kids use computers or calculators then they're not "doing math". Not just the general public but PTA leaders, school board members, and school administrators.

The problem is that the textbooks are teaching calculation. So in this instance "doing math" is calculating some equation. Solve some equation is easier to write in a textbook than an unambiguous word problem that a grad student needs to solve and put the answers in the back of the book and in the teachers solution manual. Not to mention that the math teachers are not always the best.

Re: Stop teaching calculating; Start teaching math

#19
This is sad. Really sad. My personal opinion is that Americans just dislike academic matters so much that they are incapable of forming a coherent solution for their children's schooling.

Let me tell you some personal anecdotes. I moved to Minnesota during my High school senior year from Vietnam. It sucked: I couldn't hold on to conversations, and people couldn't understand my pronunciation; so I was bored and very lonely. You know what I do during my lunch time? Trying to re-prove Fermat's Last Theorem. Is there any "real world" application of that? Well, there may be, but I don't care. It was fun.

You know how people listen to (and rock to) puke music on buses? I rode bus a lot during my college years, and spent that time wreaking my brain to work on various NP complete problems (my favorite is the man-woman-dog matching :D). Do I know it is beyond my capacity? Yes. Do I care about any real world problem of it? No. Why did I do it then? It's fun. It killed time. I still do this from time to time during meetings at work.

When you think about it, most of math, or most of the academia for that matter, is not readily applicable. True, people use calculus to build Hoover Dam, but the effect of that information on whether or not a student likes math is equivalent of a political speech to a person political orientation: either you already like it (math/Obama) and cheer for it, or you already hate it (math/Obama) and boo/ignore it. These things, by itself, can't change a person's opinion regarding the big picture.

You know why I like doing math in my free time? Because I have done a whole load of it. Vietnamese High School graduates are required to learn around sophomore math level in American college (and I fully expect most other East Asian systems to be the same). This explains neatly why Asian students are "smart." They freaking know the things already. Furthermore, the learning of math there involved an absurd amount of drill (compared to American high schools). Oh, calculators are banned until high school, and graphing calculators are banned. Period.

Now, should that not make me abhor math? I mean, slaving myself so much time over such stupid and abstract matter must bore me to death, right? Actually, the opposite happened. It's like taste bud. You rebuild your taste bud every so often, so if you have been eating a whole load of broccoli lately, you will start to like broccoli. Yeah, after the first few days, you can't even digest to crap. However, after a few months, you can't digest without broccoli. Humans are adaptable. Do a lot of math, and you will like it.

This also speaks of the problem with calculators and computers. The problem is no so much that they dump down math. The problem is that they alienate the students from math. When you do math, all of it, the result is made of your sweat. It may be wrong, but it's yours. It may be stupid and winded and long and whatnots, but it's yours. It's personal. I remember once, during 5th grade (yes, elementary school), there was this problem that I just could not solve, and we were kicked out of class for lunch break. Walking out, I cling to the teacher and cried out of frustration. The same frustration that keeps me up at nights when some stupid bugs could not be fixed. Must be the same frustration that all artisans experience at challenges. It's the indication of the bond that I have with my work, MY math, and it necessitates the toil, the slaving, the mind-numbing work of calculation.

I hope you see my point: there is no elevator to interest in math. Math lovers must have toiled and slaved over stupid calculation over and over, until a point that they could actually produce the trace of math working, just like the zone in programming or any other art. That trace, that focus, that absorption builds the love for math.

Of course, this means that the students must fist cross the initial barrier of math, just like the first few days of broccoli eating. In Asian cultures, academia is a point of pride. Parents take enormous pride in their children's academia success. Schools take enormous pride in their students' academia achievements. Think about football in American high schools. It's something similar. Study well, perform well in competition, and a student will enjoy numerous privileges and honors that is just unattainable through any other mean. The whole culture rates academia above any other activities, and use that as the measure for potential success. Playing sport well will earn praise, but it is understood to be temporary, fast passing. Studying well, and people will talk about how you will got to such and such colleges, and will become such and such person in the future. It's just different.

Back to problem of American math schooling. Here is my prescription: just make the damn students do it. Require them to work on math. Forget about the whole, um, personality and uniqueness and whatnots. You know where these things are from? The toil of work (for students, that's studying) builds personality, values, and one's importance and uniqueness. You know where self esteem is from? It's from holding a piece of paper on which a problem has been solved and solution has been neatly presented; it's from the overcoming of frustration and challenges that the problem presents. Artisans take pride and esteem in their works. Students take pride and esteem in their tests and homework (except when you tell them that the football players will get the praise, the money, and the sex, and only these 3 things matter). Stop worrying about overworking them. Actually, overwork them to the ground. Leave them no energy and time to experiment with drugs and sex and alcohol.

It takes challenges and toil to make a person. Stop taking these things away from the youngsters!

Re: Stop teaching calculating; Start teaching math

#20
post #12

I remember reading an article about almost the same topic by Felleisen, maybe Flatt, maybe Culpepper and some others from the PLT group, it was about using DrRacket to teach maths, there was an example involving the take-off of a rocket iirc. Is anyone able to find it? I don't remember the title nor where it was published.

Sounds like http://world.cs.brown.edu/
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