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Healthy soil is the hidden ingredient

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Re: Healthy soil is the hidden ingredient

#131

Post by contingencies »

lukas099 wrote: post #130
contingencies wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment makes me think of those people who say "plants need light and water". It's expanded, sure: "plants need light, water and NPK" ... but no, that's also extremely naive. The point is, until very recently, western science knew almost nothing about botanical systems. We are only reaching the level of many traditional societies now. (If you are skeptical, check any horticultural reference for the difference in…

> difference in tree height observed in nature vs. "in cultivation"... often 50% height! Trees in nature are usually in forests, where they grow tall in competition for light. Terra in cultivation tend to be grown surrounded by grass, growing wider and shorter to collect sunshine.

Exactly that sort of false reductionism is missing the point.

While reduced sunlight can have a role in early stage height differences, this occurs both in cultivation and in nature and therefore is not a sole causative factor.

The sort of factors being indicated that were previously ignored by western horticulture are interaction based. Cultivated trees often face simplified fungal communities, limiting nutrient diversity compared to natural forests’ complex networks. Furthermore, natural forests exhibit interconnected fungal systems that facilitate nutrient redistribution between trees and improved community pathogen resistance.

The average person is unaware or thinks this is fantasy. They are ignorant. Don't be ignorant.

Re: Healthy soil is the hidden ingredient

#132

Post by bgnn »

conductr wrote: post #112
bgnn wrote: post #28

I started my gardening adventure with vegetables in pots. It was perfect, plants gave amazing yield, but required too detailed care and attention every day (or sometimes 2-3 times a day in a hot dry summer day). When I have moved to planting in soil I was shocked how worse the plants are doing. Same tomatoes giving 10-15 kg per plant yield in pots were under 3kg in soil. They got more disease issues, more pests (slug…

What you explain sounds similar to just having a high clay content. Water doesn’t soak in well. Not all earth is good soil to begin with is the lesson, you need to know what your starting with and amend. Unless you’re using potting mix in a pot, this is usually engineered to be excellent by professionals and explains the success

High clay can by itself be quite problematic, especially reclaimed soil from sea and river deltas (so called polders) here in the Netherlands. These lands are very dense clay to begin with, rich with nutrients but not great for root growth and holding water. Sand is added for the former, and groubd water level is managed to max 1m underground for the latter. Nowadays with long stretches of dry weather (> 2 weeks no rain) this is becoming a huge problem as traditionally the issue always was drainage, ie getting rid of the water as fast as possible.

There's an interesting read about a polder in English here, especially the mechanical soil improvement section is worthwhile: https://www.canonnoordoostpolder.nl/en/land/cultivation

Re: Healthy soil is the hidden ingredient

#133

Post by bgnn »

anon84873628 wrote: post #99
bgnn wrote: post #28

I started my gardening adventure with vegetables in pots. It was perfect, plants gave amazing yield, but required too detailed care and attention every day (or sometimes 2-3 times a day in a hot dry summer day). When I have moved to planting in soil I was shocked how worse the plants are doing. Same tomatoes giving 10-15 kg per plant yield in pots were under 3kg in soil. They got more disease issues, more pests (slug…

Interesting that you mentioned compost without animal products, then bat guano. Isn't guano harvesting fairly unsustainable and damaging to bat colonies?

True. I wasn't really avoiding animal products but the idea was to not flood the soil with nitrogen. Bat guano is indeed bot great, which I stopped using after learning. Great thing about ot is thomoug high potassium and phosphate. This was necessary for my watermelons.

I've read that pigeon guano is also great. I didn't do any research on its environmental impact though, as I don't need it at the moment.

Re: Healthy soil is the hidden ingredient

#134

Post by bgnn »

smogcutter wrote: post #85
bgnn wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just put them dry, not broken, and overlapping between the boxes such that they cover the surface fully. And yes, the roots can go down, but weeds cannot go past that easily. The theory is yhe upwards growth is weak but downwards growth of the roots are much stronger and they can puncture a wet paper box. Cover crops: clover, buckwheat and winter rye. Cut before seeding and lay them flat over the surface.

Just to clear up what sounds like a simple misunderstanding, because you mentioned being in Europe: in the US (can’t speak for other English speaking countries) to “break down” box is to flatten it, not break it like to destroy or tear apart. As in “help me break down these boxes for recycling”. Forgive me if you got that, it just sounded like you were talking past each other.

Oh I totally misunderstood that. Thanks for the clarification.

Re: Healthy soil is the hidden ingredient

#135

Post by southernplaces7 »

luqtas wrote: post #114
culi wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is common knowledge. Even the Wikipedia page states: > There is evidence that there have been significant changes in the Amazon rainforest vegetation over the last 21,000 years through the last glacial maximum (LGM) and subsequent deglaciation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_rainforest Also, there's this: https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/10-800-years-a...

the Wiki citation doesn't even have a source, nor is calling that indigenous people made it your last link is about Llanos de Moxos, which isn't in Amazon. you don't seen to understand even basic geography... even if Llanos was 100% man-made (and isn't) and it was part of the Amazon (and not a region that borders it) it would be the equivalent of 2.6% of the whole Amazon area. concluding such a thing because 3% of an…

>it was common knowledge among middle age that Earth was flat. doesn't seem an argument to me

And you don't seem to know basic history, casting doubt on other things you say. Nobody serious in the middle ages (or since much further back than that either) thought seriously that the Earth was flat.

Re: Healthy soil is the hidden ingredient

#136

Post by luqtas »

southernplaces7 wrote: post #135
luqtas wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the Wiki citation doesn't even have a source, nor is calling that indigenous people made it your last link is about Llanos de Moxos, which isn't in Amazon. you don't seen to understand even basic geography... even if Llanos was 100% man-made (and isn't) and it was part of the Amazon (and not a region that borders it) it would be the equivalent of 2.6% of the whole Amazon area. concluding such a thing because 3% of an…

>it was common knowledge among middle age that Earth was flat. doesn't seem an argument to me And you don't seem to know basic history, casting doubt on other things you say. Nobody serious in the middle ages (or since much further back than that either) thought seriously that the Earth was flat.

actually i meant "geocentrism" but it was too late to edit but you are right, middle age didn't thought Earth was flat

now if you are defending this absurd commentary that Amazonia was a grassland 10,000 years ago and turned out to be what's because humans, i think you both are on the level of flat earth 21° century people

Re: Healthy soil is the hidden ingredient

#137

Post by perrygeo »

memhole wrote: post #16
ralusek wrote: post #10

I'm a gardening and landscaping enjoyer, but I am constantly confused about the bordering magical thinking surrounding dirt, among other aspects of growing things. If you look at hydroponics/aeroponics, plants basically need water, light, and fertilizer (N (nitrogen) P (phosphorous) K (potassium), and a few trace minerals). It can be the most synthetic process you've ever seen, and the plants will grow amazingly well…

Maybe it’s because I started with hydroponics. I don’t get the fascination with soil or animosity about hydroponics being unnatural. People do vastly underestimate what it takes to create a good soil mixture, though. In the end, you’re suspending nutrients in a substrate for the plants to uptake regardless of how you go about providing them.

The difference is that in soil you have microbes and fungus which seek out and break down inorganic nutrients then exchange them with plants for sugar. Plant's access to nutrients is mediated by this underground ecosystem.

In hydroponics YOU provide the work to gather and process all the nutrients and provide them to the plant roots in an optimal form. In nature, that work is done by the soil ecosystem.

In the end, the plant does not seem to really care. As long as it has the right molecules available, it's happy. Possibly moreso since it doesn't need to sacrifice any of its sugars.

Re: Healthy soil is the hidden ingredient

#138

Post by westurner »

westurner wrote: post #84
CrazyStat wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority of plants do not absorb nitrogen from the air. Legumes are the well-known exception.

I think that's why it's good to rotate beans or plant clover cover crop. Three Sisters: Corn, Beans, Squash: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Sisters_(agriculture) Companion planting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companion_planting Nitrogen fixation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_fixation

From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43764441 :

> "Discovery of nitrogen-fixing corn variety could reduce need for added fertilizer" (2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17721741

Re: Healthy soil is the hidden ingredient

#139

Post by southernplaces7 »

luqtas wrote: post #136
southernplaces7 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it was common knowledge among middle age that Earth was flat. doesn't seem an argument to me And you don't seem to know basic history, casting doubt on other things you say. Nobody serious in the middle ages (or since much further back than that either) thought seriously that the Earth was flat.

actually i meant "geocentrism" but it was too late to edit but you are right, middle age didn't thought Earth was flat now if you are defending this absurd commentary that Amazonia was a grassland 10,000 years ago and turned out to be what's because humans, i think you both are on the level of flat earth 21° century people

No, not defending that, since evidence points to it having been a forest, but that a place like the Amazon could form from grassland in the span of a few thousand years is absolutely possible.

Re: Healthy soil is the hidden ingredient

#140

Post by geetee »

lm28469 wrote: post #108
geetee wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That could be true, but maybe OP's goal isn't making a positive impact on the global scale.

Just throw your scrapes and buy compost then, it'll be cheaper and easier. The city already transforms bio waste in gas and compost anyways, and much more efficiently than what you can do at home given the scale. This is another "I'm doing my part" gimmick that solves literally nothing when you look under the hood

You're not wrong. I think people just like to feel like they're doing their part, even if it's not actually a net benefit.
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