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Attacking My Landlord's Boiler

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121–130 of 232 posts

Re: Attacking My Landlord's Boiler

#121
post #59

> I also have it so the heating turns off when I go into town and turns back on when I'm just a few train stops away so my place is nice and toasty for me getting home! If your goal is saving energy/money, you don’t want a system capable of going from cool to toasty in 20 minutes. Instead, you want a system that runs (much) lower water circulation temperatures (giving lower losses in the unconditioned spaces and more…

That’s an artifact of how heating is setup inside your home. Which is more efficient depends on where you’re dumping heat inside the home, levels of insulation, etc. Energy moves from hot to cold linearly with temperature differences. Hypothetically, if the pipe was the same temperatures as the inside of your home all the heat transferred would be outside the envelope. The hotter the pipe the better this ratio become…

Look at ISO 7730, a lot of comfort comes from non-cold walls and their radiant heat and small difference of wall temperatures to air temperatures. So having a thoroughly heated home allows you to lower your air temperature. Apart from that modern gas and even more heat pumps greatly gain efficiency by lowering flow water temperatures.

Re: Attacking My Landlord's Boiler

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read that it's always more efficient to turn heating off when you're not home and then turn it back on when you return. Is the reason for it being on 22-24 hours here that it takes a very long time to get back to the desired temperature, meaning you'd actually be cold for quite a while as it returned to the desired temperature?

> I've read that it's always more efficient to turn heating off when you're not home and then turn it back on when you return. 50 years ago this was _always_ the case, but condensing boilers and especially heat pumps muddy the waters a little. Condensing boilers can be close to 100% efficient (vs ~70-80% for ye olde gas boilers), but generally only at a fairly specific operating temperature, which may be lower than y…

ISO 7730 to the help. Just keep low overall temperatures and heat 24/7 in a reasonably insulated home.

Re: Attacking My Landlord's Boiler

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read that it's always more efficient to turn heating off when you're not home and then turn it back on when you return. Is the reason for it being on 22-24 hours here that it takes a very long time to get back to the desired temperature, meaning you'd actually be cold for quite a while as it returned to the desired temperature?

I work entirely remote so, other than travel, there are not many long periods when the house is unoccupied. I target the long run time to maximize efficiency. A 160°F pipe will lose more heat to the part of the building that I don’t want to heat as well as more heat to the wall right behind the radiators. It also results in the house going micro too-hot, too-cold, too-hot, too-cold as it cycles. Mine is constantly tr…

> Another large effect is that low return water temperatures into the boiler allow for greater condensation of exhaust gas energy to be used in the building instead of sent outside.

Correct.

> Walking by my house on a cold day, you’ll see minimal steam plume during operation. All that steam I see my neighbors emitting is energy they paid for and delivered to the outside… (They paid a lot for a boiler with a 95% or 98% sticker and run it at 80% efficiency.)

Please check your assumptions.

A boiler operating in condensing mode will produce a trickle of liquid condensate (that may well be drained somewhere that you can’t see [0]), teeny tiny drops of condensate suspended in gas (colloquially “steam”, but it’s more like fog), and some residual water vapor mixed with the exhaust gasses. You can see the “steam”, but you cannot see that residual vapor except to the extent that it condenses further as the exhaust stream cools after it exits, much as you can see some of your own exhaled water vapor on a cold day as it condenses outside your nose or mouth. The exhaust gas is saturated: it has maximum humidity and is at its own dewpoint, so there is a lot of visible fog. The droplets that form inside the boiler and escape with the flue gas do not represent wasted heat: their heat of fusion has been captured.

A boiler operating in non-condensing mode will produce no liquid condensate, and its exhaust will be well above its own dewpoint. It will contain far more water vapor than a condensing boiler, but you cannot see that vapor except insofar as the flue gas has a different index of refraction than the surrounding air and distorts the background a bit. Depending on weather, a bit of it may condense later. All of it is wasted energy.

[0] This liquid condensate is nasty stuff: it’s basically carbonated distilled water plus some impurities but not usefully buffered, and it’s rather acidic. It will quickly corrode many metals, including copper and many common copper alloys, non-stainless steel, galvanized steel, etc. Non-condensing furnaces and boilers are generally carefully engineered to avoid condensation, because the condensation would damage them. If your plumber is unaware of the degree to which boiler condensate is corrosive and uses copper pipes or metallic fittings (push-to-fit in the style commonly sold as “Sharkbite”), the system will fail. Use plastic pipes (PVC or PEX) and plastic (or maybe stainless steel) fittings such as ordinary solvent-cement PVC fittings, “engineered plastic” PEX fittings, or push-to-connect fittings with plastic wetted surfaces. John Guest makes these, and there is also the somewhat bizarre ProLock brand, which seems to be some sort of joint offering from John Guest and Sharkbite.

Re: Attacking My Landlord's Boiler

#124
post #111
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Possessing the tools that could be used to commit a crime is not necessarily a crime in and of itself! While I do agree 1000%, I also want people to be careful with this thinking since I have gotten in some minor trouble in the past. Always assume the authority questioning you can and will create whatever narrative they wish, that it will be accepted, and that your own reasoning will likely be used against you. I w…

Or perhaps go for the opposite of subtle - in many places it's quite normal to see people in hi-vis vests taking readings etc.

The 'shade curve' as I call it, where one reaches a point where their actions could be considered so shady, it's automatically assumed it couldn't possibly be them.

Smoking pot in a dark parking lot with friends at night gives more cover, but smoking pot walking down your city's main street in the middle of the day gives you the cover of just smoking an innocuous "rollie," like any other person could be.

Re: Attacking My Landlord's Boiler

#125
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read that it's always more efficient to turn heating off when you're not home and then turn it back on when you return. Is the reason for it being on 22-24 hours here that it takes a very long time to get back to the desired temperature, meaning you'd actually be cold for quite a while as it returned to the desired temperature?

The hidden factor here is that condensing boilers and heat pumps have non-linear efficiency vs flow temperature curves. Heat pumps in particular show high increase in coefficient of performance (CoP) as flow temperature drops. The other variable is how well controlled your heating is. A lower flow temperature means less overshoot of the target set point - and as losses scale linearly with temperature delta, that can…

You missing ISO7730, it is a system for humans and not air temperature control. (tl;dr heating your home 24/7 allows you to lower air temperature for the same comfort. )

Re: Attacking My Landlord's Boiler

#126
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work entirely remote so, other than travel, there are not many long periods when the house is unoccupied. I target the long run time to maximize efficiency. A 160°F pipe will lose more heat to the part of the building that I don’t want to heat as well as more heat to the wall right behind the radiators. It also results in the house going micro too-hot, too-cold, too-hot, too-cold as it cycles. Mine is constantly tr…

> Another large effect is that low return water temperatures into the boiler allow for greater condensation of exhaust gas energy to be used in the building instead of sent outside. Correct. > Walking by my house on a cold day, you’ll see minimal steam plume during operation. All that steam I see my neighbors emitting is energy they paid for and delivered to the outside… (They paid a lot for a boiler with a 95% or 98…

I’m imagining that what I see in my neighbor’s exhaust is the subsequent condensation as their exhaust gas cools to where the dew point is met and visible moisture becomes apparent.

I can see a clear difference between running my own boiler at 25°F OAT (lots of “steam”) versus 40°F OAT (almost none) while I see my cross-street neighbor showing large plumes on both. I’m not sure if I mistyped above or I’m actually thinking about it wrong, but I don’t think my observations are incorrect.

Having that water condense outside the building (giving up heat to the neighborhood) is less efficient than having that water give up its heat into the incoming (return) water.

Re: Attacking My Landlord's Boiler

#127
post #111
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Possessing the tools that could be used to commit a crime is not necessarily a crime in and of itself! While I do agree 1000%, I also want people to be careful with this thinking since I have gotten in some minor trouble in the past. Always assume the authority questioning you can and will create whatever narrative they wish, that it will be accepted, and that your own reasoning will likely be used against you. I w…

Or perhaps go for the opposite of subtle - in many places it's quite normal to see people in hi-vis vests taking readings etc.

That's an excellent additional thing to consider and I'm a bit mad that I neglected it since I have accidentally been that guy.

My job requires me to wear hi-vis (as well as other PPE) and it is crazy how little security pays attention to me in some of the very-big-name plants I visit, often with a laptop bag full of flash drives and a bunch of other tools that allow me to get into the machines.

Early in this part of my career, I found myself in a very large plant for the first time, and my escort got pulled away on some other task (I now expect this to happen since it's such a common occurrence), leaving me to fix the machine I was working on. The place was the size of a small town, and I needed to use the restroom, but nobody was in the vicinity to ask, so I did my best to follow the floor markings and signs. Found it, but took a wrong turn coming back and found myself in a completely different area. Since I was new, I tried to find my way back without asking anyone I saw because I did not want to look stupid, but nobody stopped me, questioned me, etc.

Probably one of the best lessons in social engineering is looking like you're supposed to be there.

Re: Attacking My Landlord's Boiler

#128
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or perhaps go for the opposite of subtle - in many places it's quite normal to see people in hi-vis vests taking readings etc.

The 'shade curve' as I call it, where one reaches a point where their actions could be considered so shady, it's automatically assumed it couldn't possibly be them. Smoking pot in a dark parking lot with friends at night gives more cover, but smoking pot walking down your city's main street in the middle of the day gives you the cover of just smoking an innocuous "rollie," like any other person could be.

It's hard for anyone with a nose to mistake one for the other.

(The underlying point is completely valid, though. Audacity is a powerful thing.)

Re: Attacking My Landlord's Boiler

#129
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In slightly cooler climates, the answer for sleep is to open windows. This works in much of Europe, even through summer. But of course, not really feasible in Atlanta or Phoenix. Nighttime temps are too warm.

Open windows in a city often means you are invinting in pollution, both air and noise.

Exactly. Current HVAC systems have extensive filtration; some HVAC systems have HEPA filters.

Re: Attacking My Landlord's Boiler

#130
post #36

I wonder what the ideal one-size fits all thermostat looks like. The one in my apartment has a “feature” a lot of US thermostats now have, where you set four ordered times called wake, leave, return, and sleep and the temperature you want the space in each interval. I know very few people who actually live in a household where everyone wakes, leaves, returns, and sleeps on the same schedule every day. I work from hom…

My wife and I worked a six-week shift work schedule for a long time. We got second-gen nest thermostats when they first came out (2012) thinking they were neat. Nope! The smart learning feature was the biggest pain in the ass. You’d be sleeping during the day for a night shift, only to find yourself freezing because it decided no one was home.

I like the Nest, but I absolutely turned off all the "smart" features and just set a fixed temperature range and change it when desired.
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