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Pope Francis has died

reuters.com

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Re: Pope Francis has died

#251

Post by andybak »

fastball wrote: post #133
fleabitdev wrote: post #110

Last year, an interviewer asked Francis how he envisages hell. His response stayed with me: “It’s difficult to imagine it. What I would say is not a dogma of faith, but my personal thought: I like to think hell is empty; I hope it is.”

Nothing from the Bible indicates that hell is empty, so that is indeed an interesting response from the Pope.

The bible only has sparse and often contradictory references to hell - so it's very difficult to state "what the Bible says about hell" as if there's a unified picture laid out.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#252

Post by d3ckard »

code_for_monkey wrote: post #220
d3ckard wrote: post #44

I think he will be mostly remembered as a terrible politician, first alienating conservatives with progressive policy and then alienating liberals with very questionable opinions on war in Ukraine. In the end, nobody was really happy with him. On the other hand, he definitely had a will and a spine to stick to his own opinions - I guess that counts for something.

[flagged]

Of course I am happily criticising pope from back seat, this thread is literally to discuss him as a public figure.

Already said that conservative and liberal are English words not necessarily connected to US political scene. I know plenty of people initially supportive of him who got seriously pissed when he broke the long standing tradition of supporting the attacked, not the attacker.

I would argue it’s a pretty common position in Europe.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#253

Post by Trasmatta »

fastball wrote: post #243
Trasmatta wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Bible has very little to say about hell in general.

Gonna disagree with you there. https://www.openbible.info/topics/hell

It's not that simple, because there are multiple concepts and Hebrew and Greek words that were translated as "hell". And many of those passages don't mention hell at all, but are just interpreted as such by readers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_in_Christianity

Re: Pope Francis has died

#254

Post by d3ckard »

basisword wrote: post #169
d3ckard wrote: post #44

I think he will be mostly remembered as a terrible politician, first alienating conservatives with progressive policy and then alienating liberals with very questionable opinions on war in Ukraine. In the end, nobody was really happy with him. On the other hand, he definitely had a will and a spine to stick to his own opinions - I guess that counts for something.

>> In the end, nobody was really happy with him. This is true if you live in a bubble. Most Catholics don't hold strong opinions on the Pope. The people who do are, as usual, the extremes on either side - not the majority.

Not holding a strong opinion counts as not being happy with him, otherwise you would have a strong positive opinion of him.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#255

Post by ralfd »

gortok wrote: post #219
keepamovin wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the film the Two Popes gave a good overview of his life and perspective.

It’s important to note that The Two Popes was a drama, and not a true factual story. It fictionalizes and sensationalizes some details; and that’s ok because its purpose is to make you feel exactly the way you feel about it. Pope Francis was a wonderful steward of Christianity and espoused the virtues that anyone would want to see in their religious leaders: humility, grace, an openness to listen and a strong voice a…

> including rightfully limiting the Latin mass

Why is that a political thing though? The mass of the roman church was for centuries (almost all it’s history?) in latin.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#256

Post by kergonath »

grandempire wrote: post #123
froh wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the pontifical academy of science has. https://www.pas.va/en.html

Thanks. That looks like a way for Catholics to support and endorse scientific research rather than a develop alternative science.

Indeed, that is exactly what it is. Mainstream catholics don’t really have a problem with science in general, but with moral consequences of some application of science. Broadly speaking, they are not saying that science is fake, more that there are some things we should not do.

A conversation with a Jesuit for example can be enlightening because they have intellectual and moral arguments, it’s not just castles built on the shifting foundations of a Bible verse.

This leads to different approaches compared to a lot of American Protestants. They don’t seek to undermine science.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#257

Post by andybak »

fastball wrote: post #243
Trasmatta wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Bible has very little to say about hell in general.

Gonna disagree with you there. https://www.openbible.info/topics/hell

Modern academic scholarship paints a very complex picture: https://www.bartehrman.com/hell-in-the-bible/

I would argue that reading random quotes without context can be misleading. Unless of course you believe in a univocal, consistent and divinely inspired bible - which is a fairly extreme position to take.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#259

Post by UncleMeat »

contrarian1234 wrote: post #239

[flagged]

Francis was both things.

Within the scope of the Catholic Church he was progressive. His speeches were often in opposition to rising nationalism. He spoke about inclusion for people who haven't traditionally been included by the Church. In comparison to Benedict he was much more friendly to the global left.

But he was also a Catholic. The Church remains a global enemy to LGBT rights and its position on birth control is a source of death and devastation from AIDS as you mention. And the Church remains committed to a system of gender inequality within its ranks.

I do think that some of the lefty praise of Francis incorrectly ignores these problems. But also I'd rather have Francis than Benedict.

It'll be interesting to see what happens next. Two years ago I would have said that the next pope would certainly be a reactionary that returns to a more rigid conservatism. But with Trump elected and the rest of the world reacting to his idiocy I can see there being more limited appetite for a conservative turn within the Church leadership.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#260

Post by caseyy »

decimalenough wrote: post #210
caseyy wrote: post #191

Pope Francis has done much to transform the Catholic church into a more progressive and inclusive institution. If not for his papacy, it was somewhat likely that the church would drift too far from Millennial values to keep its former relevance. Hopefully, the next pope will also champion unity, inclusivity, and peace, and oppose religious dogmatism. This will define the future of Christianity. Many challenges remain…

There's been much talk of the Church finally electing a black Pope from sub-Saharan Africa. The irony is that, if they are inclusive enough to do so, the selected Pope will almost certainly be more hard-line and doctrinaire than any of his recent predecessors on issues like homosexuality. Here's one of the contenders: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Sarah

Of the current widely accepted papabili, Peter Turkson is from Sub-Saharan Africa. He is softly pro-LGBT, and he seeks to harmonize the progressive homosexuality views with traditional African culture[0]. I don't think Robert Sarah is considered papabile, possibly owing to his message of hate for homosexuality. Overall, it's inconsistent with the recent message of the church, and it is hard to imagine that progressive Catholics would accept it.

Here's a Reuters list for possible Francis successors: https://www.reuters.com/world/who-might-succeed-pope-francis.... Usually, Reuters does thorough due diligence before releasing something. So I'd expect their predictions are accurate.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Turkson

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